My Italian Problem
#1
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My Italian Problem
In 40 plus years messing about with bikes, last summer, for the very first time, I built up a frame with Italian threading.
It is a early 80's Merckx, found here in BF. It is not pristine, but it is a joy to ride.
Just this morning, while riding it on an errand, I thought to myself, " this bike is a joy to ride."
Then I looked down at the crankset and noticed that there seemed to be a lot of space between the BB and the fixed cup. I stopped and looked a bit closer. The fixed cup had loosened up.
Now, I had heard that Italian thread BBs were prone to do this, but had always thought it was a myth. I guess not.
BB is a Shimano UN55. Threads were greased as per Shimano tech sheet. Loctite was likely used as there is a fairly new tube on the bench and I would not have used it on anything else. Not sure if I got out the torque wrench but probably did. Mileage on the bike is low: HB tape is still clean from build and there is no clearance for fenders so it was not ridden more than a few times over the winter.
Here's the question: Do I tear it apart, loctite every inch of the threads, and have Young Spadoni, who is possessed of the strength to break two frames in the last year do the final tightening ? Or do I go old school and out on a real fixed cup that can actually be snugged up should it come loose without having to pull the cranks? How do I know that is possible? I had a Raleigh that when transported in the back of a friend's VW beetle would develop a loose fixed cup after about 50 miles. I still have the plumber's drain wrench that I used to deal with that problem.
Suggestions?
It is a early 80's Merckx, found here in BF. It is not pristine, but it is a joy to ride.
Just this morning, while riding it on an errand, I thought to myself, " this bike is a joy to ride."
Then I looked down at the crankset and noticed that there seemed to be a lot of space between the BB and the fixed cup. I stopped and looked a bit closer. The fixed cup had loosened up.
Now, I had heard that Italian thread BBs were prone to do this, but had always thought it was a myth. I guess not.
BB is a Shimano UN55. Threads were greased as per Shimano tech sheet. Loctite was likely used as there is a fairly new tube on the bench and I would not have used it on anything else. Not sure if I got out the torque wrench but probably did. Mileage on the bike is low: HB tape is still clean from build and there is no clearance for fenders so it was not ridden more than a few times over the winter.
Here's the question: Do I tear it apart, loctite every inch of the threads, and have Young Spadoni, who is possessed of the strength to break two frames in the last year do the final tightening ? Or do I go old school and out on a real fixed cup that can actually be snugged up should it come loose without having to pull the cranks? How do I know that is possible? I had a Raleigh that when transported in the back of a friend's VW beetle would develop a loose fixed cup after about 50 miles. I still have the plumber's drain wrench that I used to deal with that problem.
Suggestions?
#2
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Italian / Japanese conflict
seriously- take it apart- clean drive side threads on both sides, loctite drive side
seriously- take it apart- clean drive side threads on both sides, loctite drive side
#3
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It seems the Italian thread cartridges might have an issue with regression loosening...is that what it’s called...
haven’t had the issue with Campy cartridges though as yet.
haven’t had the issue with Campy cartridges though as yet.
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1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
#4
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Maybe it's just luck - but I've installed quite a few Italian threaded BBs, both old school and cartridge, and never had them come loose. I use just grease and tighten them VERY hard with a 16" wrench.
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I've had this problem with three different French bikes (1 VO BB, 1 IRD, and one Phil), in each case I had neglected to use Loctite. Blue Loctite on the second try took care of it.
For some reason it hasn't happened to me with an Italian yet. I use UN55 on most of them.
For some reason it hasn't happened to me with an Italian yet. I use UN55 on most of them.
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#6
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Been there, done that. I had the problem (once) with a Campy Record or Chorus BB. Blue loctite and tightening it until it screamed for mercy did the trick there.
I have recently had the same problem with a Phil Wood BB. Twice. I tried blue loctite and tightening hard, but I guess I didn't tighten it enough as it worked loose again. Because of the way Phil retaining rings are set up, you are tightening the drive side ring against the BB unit, not the frame, and I've been reluctant to go at it as hard as I would with a more conventional set-up. I hope I tightened it enough this time (a week or two ago). We shall see.
I have recently had the same problem with a Phil Wood BB. Twice. I tried blue loctite and tightening hard, but I guess I didn't tighten it enough as it worked loose again. Because of the way Phil retaining rings are set up, you are tightening the drive side ring against the BB unit, not the frame, and I've been reluctant to go at it as hard as I would with a more conventional set-up. I hope I tightened it enough this time (a week or two ago). We shall see.
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I find these threads so interesting, as when I replaced the Italian BB on my old steel Fondriest (with a Campy square taper BB), tightening it too much (and really much at all) put a lot of preload on the bearings, making it very rough. So... I just didn't tighten it much at all really.
... and it's been fine! I was totally expecting it to be coming apart.
... and it's been fine! I was totally expecting it to be coming apart.
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Focus on the ball at the top of the cup.
The axle (usually) rotates clockwise as seen from the drive side.
The top part of the axle is moving forward.
That drives the bottom of the ball forward and the top rearward.
The top of the ball drives the cup rearward - anti-clockwise - unscrewing a right-hand-thead.
Not just the Italians, the French cups also need grease and GRUNT to set them.
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#10
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Been there, done that - blue Loctite for the win
#11
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Clean threads and a schmear of Shoo Goo. Stays tacky, keeps it from starting to regress yet is easy to remove for servicing when required.
”My Italian bikes wear Shoo Goo or they wear nothing at all.”
”My Italian bikes wear Shoo Goo or they wear nothing at all.”
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#12
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All my bikes have Italian threads. I grease the threads (to keep them from creaking) and tighten to the recommended torque. I never had one come loose.
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Once I had an Italian fixed cup come loose. I tightened it a bit more, and Bob's yer uncle. I have never used anything other than grease on threads. ymmv.
#14
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Whole thing is interesting. One more reason I wish I had had a physics teacher who cared about something other than having us draw maps of the constellations.
Last edited by Mr. Spadoni; 04-17-21 at 08:54 AM.
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Been there, done that. I had the problem (once) with a Campy Record or Chorus BB. Blue loctite and tightening it until it screamed for mercy did the trick there.
I have recently had the same problem with a Phil Wood BB. Twice. I tried blue loctite and tightening hard, but I guess I didn't tighten it enough as it worked loose again. Because of the way Phil retaining rings are set up, you are tightening the drive side ring against the BB unit, not the frame, and I've been reluctant to go at it as hard as I would with a more conventional set-up. I hope I tightened it enough this time (a week or two ago). We shall see.
I have recently had the same problem with a Phil Wood BB. Twice. I tried blue loctite and tightening hard, but I guess I didn't tighten it enough as it worked loose again. Because of the way Phil retaining rings are set up, you are tightening the drive side ring against the BB unit, not the frame, and I've been reluctant to go at it as hard as I would with a more conventional set-up. I hope I tightened it enough this time (a week or two ago). We shall see.
or, have Jim Merz machine an alternate- need not be an exact Phil type- could be appearing like a traditional cup with enough wall to have threads exposed and add a lockring...
if the threads are a bit “loose”, Campagnolo did make 36.5 mm cups.
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Phew, from the title I thought it was a personal issue.
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I had this happen once. I’ll second torque as a “fix” and first checking that the bb is faced square. I’ve personally never used loctite, and wouldn’t unless it was a last resort.
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#20
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if enough threads show - a lockring might be possible...
or, have Jim Merz machine an alternate- need not be an exact Phil type- could be appearing like a traditional cup with enough wall to have threads exposed and add a lockring...
if the threads are a bit “loose”, Campagnolo did make 36.5 mm cups.
or, have Jim Merz machine an alternate- need not be an exact Phil type- could be appearing like a traditional cup with enough wall to have threads exposed and add a lockring...
if the threads are a bit “loose”, Campagnolo did make 36.5 mm cups.
#21
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It's easy enough to understand if you imagine the axle, balls, and cup as a planetary gear system.
Focus on the ball at the top of the cup.
The axle (usually) rotates clockwise as seen from the drive side.
The top part of the axle is moving forward.
That drives the bottom of the ball forward and the top rearward.
The top of the ball drives the cup rearward - anti-clockwise - unscrewing a right-hand-thead.
Not just the Italians, the French cups also need grease and GRUNT to set them.
Focus on the ball at the top of the cup.
The axle (usually) rotates clockwise as seen from the drive side.
The top part of the axle is moving forward.
That drives the bottom of the ball forward and the top rearward.
The top of the ball drives the cup rearward - anti-clockwise - unscrewing a right-hand-thead.
Not just the Italians, the French cups also need grease and GRUNT to set them.
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1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
#22
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Sonny went over to take care of it, but he got shot on the causeway.
I thought it was going to be like my Italian problem — more Italian bikes keep turning up in my garage.
I thought it was going to be like my Italian problem — more Italian bikes keep turning up in my garage.
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