holybinch

once again, it's based purely on www-reading, which must be taken with a pinch of salt.
I meant the interactions between all these components, how they fit and gel together to make it a nice, seamless experience, or a hellish endeavour.

RiceAWay

I have a scale and weighed them. I didn't notice you looking al the numbers over my shoulder.

RiceAWay

I sort of had a problem with "all you do" part. First the sealant is nasty and gooey and it gets all over your hands and anything else it can stick to which is almost everything; There's no source of water to wash it off, so it ends up all over your bar tape and ruins your gloves. Secondly, obviously our descriptive friend must be riding an MTB which are 1000 times easier to install, tubeless or tube. Third, getting a tube in a road tire and mounted without puncturing the tube while standing on the side of the road is not for the faint hearted.

Now it is possible to carry that "bacon" kit in your saddle pack and simply fill a hole that is too large for the sealant to seal. If they aren't absolutely huge that works fine if you have the room. I notice that many tubeless people don't have a saddle pack any longer because flats are so seldom. When I had my flat I was happy to have my CO2 filler and a spare cartridge which allowed me to make it home. But it also screwed up the rim so that it won't seal properly too. This was because I was forced to riding the tire until it was flat before refilling it. When I arrived home the tire was so flat that the wheel wouldn't ride on the road crown but the rear (flat) would try to slide into the gutter.

I absolutely love the way that tubeless tires ride and how seldom they get a flat. But when they do it makes hell look attractive. If I ever get that VAR tire jack and it proves to work I may change my ideas but until then I will go back to clincher RIMS and tires. You're no better off using a tubeless rim with an innertube and I have a trash can full of innertubes to prove it.

I do have a set of Chinese CF deep section (50 mm) clincher wheels and they are without a doubt the best wheels I have ever ridden. Whoever built them set the spoke tension to the absolute max so that the variation in tension doesn't matter. In strong side gusts they actually have less reaction to the gusts than my Campy Neurons which are box sections. The newer Chinese wheels have real Aero spokes and they tension properly. But that doesn't change the fact that carbon lay-ups do not have equal strength across the entire rim, so the spoke tensions vary all over the map. As above, it the tensions are set high enough the wheel ends up being so stiff that it doesn't matter. But therein lies the rub. Manufacturer spoke tensions are there for a reason. Round double or triple butted and aero spokes which are double butted have a max strength and hitting a good pothole can stretch or more likely break them so you can only set them to the highest that the manufacturer says. Originally those Chinese wheels had what they called "aero" spokes that where flat plates (rectangular shapes) with 3 to 5 times the strength of a normal spoke. This had two effects - spoke tensiometers would not read their tension properly and hence the automatic wheel building machines would not tension the spokes properly and the wheel would move all over the place relative to the hub. Talk about scary. Also the original wheels had standard spoke nipples and they were a real pain in the ass to bring up to high enough tension. These nipples were aluminum so you had to have a perfect fitting spoke wrench or you rounded off the nipple. Plus, invariably the spokes would be too long so you might not be able to actually tighten them enough. Later they started using nipples with square heads inside the rim and you could buy a special nut-driver that would fit them and they were all hell and gone easier to tension. But again, the flat spokes would usually be too long and you would have a difficult time tensioning them enough to stop motions of the rim under high loads such as the way I descend.

In any case, the aluminum wheels are made out of a sheet of aluminum and the nipple beds are flat. And the strength of the sides of the rim are very close in strength for the entire diameter of the wheel. So spoke tensions are the same for a round and true spoking. These wheels still have the problem that they are set up for tubeless operation but also the center well is deeper than on the carbon wheels so they mount SLIGHTLY easier. Eventually I will try them as tubeless since I haven't given up on tubeless. Sometime California might get another Republican government and the roads will be repaired instead of patched. There will be less humps and bumps for glass and metal to hide in and give you much larger punctures than the tubeless can handle.

But until that time you should probably understand that the promise of tubeless isn't what it should be and repairing a badly damaged tubeless tire out in the middle of nowhere can be more than a trying experience.

NOTE: one of the videos I saw on YouTube was a man mounting a tubeless tire. He had an expensive wheelset (probably carbon but they were CX sections - shallow soas not to pick up mud) and he was using Pirelli tires. He put them on using just is hands. So either the tire and wheelset are perfectly matched or he has the hands of a gorilla. If I could do that with my wheels I would not have a single complaint about tubeless.

FURTHER NOTE: Stan's makes a great repair kit that fits in your seat pack so you probably don't need to carry a tube. Anything that this can't seal can't be repaired by putting a tube into your tire. Now this does NOT cure the major problem of it being almost impossible to get a tubeless tire onto a tubeless wheel rim but when I get a jack and if that works I'll be back to recommending tubeless again. https://www.amazon.com/Stans-Dart-Tu...%2C200&sr=8-16 and https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...=ATVPDKIKX0DER It is important to note that IF this mounting was not a problem these tools would not be available.

noodle soup

I wouldn't trust a tire like that(with a bump from a cut casing), but at least the bacon got you home.

The Light Bicycle wheelset I'm using was under $800, and I haven't had any trouble mounting tires on them, with or without tubes. You don't have to spend a ton of cash to get a quality CF wheelset, you just need to know where to look.

tomato coupe

You’re saying they weigh less than the manufacturer’s spec? How much less?

WhyFi

With each mounting of a new tire, I'm convinced that the biggest factor in a seamless experience is... experience. It just trends towards easier each time, even when revisiting tire/rim combinations that were hellish previously. If I were to provide bullet-point advice for a tubeless n00b, in no particular order, it would be something like...
---

• If you're going to give up at the first sign of adversity, don't bother.
• It doesn't work without maintenance, so make maintenance easy. Set reminders on your calendar. Go through the valve rather than breaking the bead. Have a valve core tool on-hand. Use a dipstick. Top off through the valve. Have extra valve cores around for when they get gummy. The process only takes 10 minutes if you're set up properly.
• Rotating tires is more work - I buy tires three at a time so that I can keep the front tire on the front while wearing through two rear tires. If you really want to rotate, knock yourself out, but I'm done with that.
• When fitting the tire to the rim, do the little things. End at the valve. Get the beads in to the rim bed channel from the start and regularly check to ensure they're there through the end. Take up slack regularly. Doing this, I've never had to use anything besides my bare hands to mount tires.
• When seating, do the little things. Have a bottle of soapy water on-hand. Mist the tire beads all the way around, on both sides. Pinch and wiggle the tire all the way around - you're making sure that the beads are in the channel and that the beads/rim are slippery enough to pop up on to the shoulders when you hit it with air. Access to a good compressor or air blast canister really helps. A "snap, snap, POP!" is the sign of a job well done and is *so* satisfying.
• After seating a tire, deflate it - if the beads don't stay in place, you didn't do it right. If the beads do stay in place, remove the core, add sealant dose through the valve, re-inflate. Shake and spin the tire a bit so that the sealant can plug any little leaks. Check pressure a little later - add more air and spin if necessary.
• Get plugs/bacon strips and keep them in your riding tool kit.
• If your sealant isn't permanently sealing the vast majority of your punctures at your riding pressures, get a new sealant.
• Valves with conical rubber gaskets have worked better for me than the more fancy one with saddle-shaped gaskets made to sit in the rim bed channel.
• Anticipate that you'll make a little bit of a mess. If I'm in the house, I put a puppy piss pad under the wheel. Keep paper towels/rags nearby. The bottle of soapy water lube is great for clean-up, too.

Not a comprehensive list, though it actually looks like more work than it really is - I'll add if I think of other nuggets. Other people will have a different list and your mileage will vary, obv.

DrIsotope

With the exception of 700x23s, I mount every tubeless tire with just my hands. Five different wheelsets. Easily twice as many different makes/models of tires. It's really not that difficult.

WhyFi

I've never run 23s, but I have mounted multiple 25s, 28s, 30s, 35s, 38s and 40s - never used anything other than just my hands.

guadzilla

Question about tubeless tire pressure for all the experienced users here:

At 176lb (presently 180lb, but i'll be bacl to 176 by the end of the month. Really) I generally run my clinchers at 110r/100f for 23s, 100r/90f for 25s and 90/80 for 28s. With tubeless, I am guessing at lower pressure, the sealant is more likely to seal instead of doing bukake all over my bike and me. Is there a general rule of thumb on how much lower i can go with tubeless, so that odds of sealing improve and yet rolling resistance doesnt get too high?

Thanks!

WhyFi

Smooth is fast - suspension losses are usually more of a hindrance than RR in the real world. I wouldn't worry so much about rolling resistance as I would feel - I generally shoot for a little more pressure than what would have me thinking, "wait - do I have a flat?" I hover about 10lbs heavier than you and run 28s at ~65f/70r and this is on relatively narrow ID rims (by current standards - 17mm, I think). No bounce when slam-dancing on the pedals, no squirm when cornering and smooth on rough surfaces. People have different preferences, though, so YMMV.

guadzilla

Ah, that's pretty low then - I keep telling myself to reduce the pressure to 80psi, and i'll get there and just give it a few extra pumps and it ends up near 90 by the time i disconnect the pump. Good to know that the wheels arent gonna assplode at lower PSI - will give it a go.

Thanks for the info, bud (I'm gonna dedicate my tubeless wheelset to you, for all your help here and on the other thread!).

WhyFi

Lol - that in mind, I'm sure that you'll be unhappy with me and your decision to go tubeless at least once in the coming months.

noodle soup

I'm about 190lbs and using 30mm G-One Speed tires @60/55psi

tomato coupe

I weigh the same as you do. The roads where I live are pretty good, so I use similar pressures as you do. The reason I no longer run tubeless on my road bikes is because I found it didn't work very well at those pressures. Most of the time the sealant did it's job and plugged a hole, but it was very common for the hole to re-open when the tire was re-inflated to its nominal pressure. In other words, once a tire had a puncture, it then had to be run 20-30 psi less to avoid a "relapse." For a lighter rider, or someone who prefers lower pressure due to rougher roads, tubeless can work well. For me, on the roads I ride, I wouldn't run tubeless on my road bikes again, unless I went to 28mm tires and stayed at least 10 psi below your nominal 90/80 psi.

DrIsotope

Rider weight 215lbs, currently running:

IRC RaceLite 700x23s @ 90/90
WTB Exposure 700x30 @ 65/70
Ritchey Alpine 700x35 @ 65/65

It really depends on the construction and behavior of the tire. The Ritcheys are pretty tall in the sidewall, so they need a bit more pressure for road use, or they get kinda wallowy.

WhyFi

My first set of tubeless tires were 25mm and I ran them at ~100psi. They took a couple of nasty punctures (one was a double puncture from a big construction staple that I had to pry out with a key) but sealed permanently and had no issues being run at the same pressure afterward. My sample size at that pressure is just that one set of tires, though - I moved to 28/30mm after that. I don't know if tire construction difference would affect sealing ability at that pressure, but these were pretty racy tires (Gavia SLRs, ~250g and $100/ea at the time) so I wouldn't imagine that it could get much worse. The sealant was, as always for me, Orange Seal.

Since then, the highest pressure that I've regularly run at is 80psi, but no problems with that, either, though.

guadzilla

Yeah, I have faced that issue as well. Got a flat that sealed during the ride but at a much lower pressure - enough that i felt a bit squirrely on that coming down a long hilly descent. And it wouldnt re-seal at anything more than 50-55psi. I am going to try a different sealant and Dynaplugs to see if that solves the issue. I normally dont flat enough that for me, the tradeoff of dealing with sealant mess is not worth the benefits of tubeless. But if i can simplify the issue of dealing with tubeless flats, that may change the equation.

30mm is the nominal size or measured size?

I'll curse your name then, i guess... jokes apart, I've already been unhappy with tubeless a few times in the past year or so of trying it - but at the same, i also have to accept that 2 of my tubeless flats were sidewall cuts (which isnt a tubeless thing) and in one, the tire did seal but at a very low pressure that felt wobbly (this is the question i had asked in my other thread). I'm really digging the ride on my RapidAirs, though - enough to make me want to give this whole thing another go.

noodle soup

31.5mm actual measurement, on 30mm wide Light Bicycle(23mm internal) hoops.

Sy Reene

Try this:
https://info.silca.cc/silca-professi...ure-calculator

guadzilla

Ah cool, that's a different one and is coming up with slightly different numbers. This doesnt distinguish between tubeless and clinchers though, does it?

holybinch

Super helpful, thanks a lot.
Saved for posterity

Sy Reene

I've never come across anything that says the answer would be different for optimal road riding. Only if driven by surface (eg. riding gravel) where tubeless allows a lower inflation without as much pinch flat risk, ie. where you couldn't in your right mind lower a tubed setup safely.

Maybe more than you care to read on the subject of inflation:
https://blog.silca.cc/part-4b-rollin...-and-impedance
https://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/...sure_7410.html

guadzilla

Thanks for that link - will check it out shortly.

Re whether the answer would be different - no idea. Am seeing a lot of chatter about people running tubeless at lower PSI for more comfort without risking pinch flats. So was wondering if there is a good tradeoff, where you can lower the pressure by X psi and not lose much in the way of rolling resistance but gain some comfort.

Sy Reene

In all likelihood, yes you can likely lower your PSI a bit running tubeless without harm, as the physiological and perhaps, psychological benefits, would outweigh any losses due to lower than optimal tire inflation. Take the chart below from the first article I linked.. and look at the yellow line. For illustrative and directional purposes only, this is for a 25mm tire, but you'll note I think only an approximate 2 watt loss for an 80psi inflation vs optimal 100psi. It's easy to imagine that those 2 watts (which I daresay nobody could naturally notice anyway), could easily be overcome by having a slightly more comfortable ride and less fatigue, and/or psychologically (dependent on the tire itself and riding conditions) a rider might feel more confident in higher speed handling/cornering scenarios with a less jittery setup -- ie. less propensity to hit the brakes as much.

I'd suggest starting with the calculator.. and then try lowering gradually til you get somewhere you're happy.. but don't go higher.

RiceAWay

I weigh 190 lbs presently and with either Orange or Finish Line sealant I haven't any trouble at all with tubeless at 90 psi on 25 mm tires. I prefer Finish Line because it is longer lasting. Also the few times I have noticed a puncture (except on one occasion) I couldn't detect any pressure loss. And in one case I SAW the puncture since it sprayed sealant out of the front tire. The place I was going was a café that caters to cyclists and he keeps a pump outside. I checked the pressure and it hadn't lost any detectable pressure.