atwl77

Just curious... because I'm looking at one pretty nasty elevation profile coming up at the end of June and it's giving me cold feet, lol.

StephenH

If I really thought I wouldn't finish in time, no.
I might be inclined to go ride parts of the route before or after to see how I fared, though. And if you have time to check it out beforehand, then change plans accordingly.
If there's just one particular climb that's liable to be a time-sucker, check with the organizers- they have certain leeway to use untimed controls where a particular climb is apt to slow riders down (say, if the ride starts with a long climb). (Edit: I'm assuming RUSA/ACP rules, may vary otherwise.)
Also, if it's one of the Super-6 perms, they have extra-long times to allow for all the climbing.

rhm

In my case, it would depend on what I was trying to accomplish. In general I'd rather do an interesting ride with no ACP/RUSA credit than a boring one with ACP/RUSA credit.

So, if it was a 200 km ride in tough but scenic terrain where I've never ridden before, where I'm promised a decent route and maybe some support as well as company, then sure, I'd do it.

If I was chasing some goal like an R12 series and I had to get credit for a 200k ride by the end of the month, I might pick something easier.

unterhausen

if I was confident I wouldn't finish, no. If it was questionable, I probably would. But it depends on distance too. The other thing to consider is if there are impossible timed intermediate controls. Randonneuring time allowances are very generous

clasher

Personally I'd rather finish OTL (or DNF while trying) than not bother starting at all. Since brevets have generous time limits I know I can usually slog almost anything out... and I have no shame associated with walking steep parts of big climbs. At least with a hilly course one knows what to expect, some flat courses have challenged me more with high winds than hilly courses do. I have DNF'd a few rides have learned a lot about my body and my riding every time. If you are really concerned about not finishing it's good to make a backup plan.

ThermionicScott 

Success builds on success for me. You risk DNF'ing any brevet you start, but if you bite off more than you can chew too many times in a row, it will be harder to get back on track.

Happy Feet

I guess it breaks down a bit to experience. If you have a base of experience doing something you intuitively know what range you can operate in. If you don't almost anything appears risky.

That being said, and Scott's point being taken, sometimes a failure teaches you more than an easily anticipated success.

When I was in my 20's I put too much stock in elevation maps and jammed out on a tour through the Rockies by hitching over Rogers Pass. Regretted that for two decades until I returned to do it again and a big part of my training now revolves around cresting mountain passes.

That insight into how I can be psyched out by anticipation taught me to pay attention to the next 100m and let the rest work itself out.

kingston 

If I were worried about something three months away, I would use that as motivation to get in better shape.

Carbonfiberboy 

No. I'd train until I knew I could do it easily. I hate being miserable on the bike. Tired and pain is fine, misery is not.

The way to get faster is to ride faster, meaning hard hilly rides of 1-4 hours, riding for time, i.e. TTing them. That's very simple and very effective. If it's a day ride, 400k or less, that works great. There's plenty of time for that, just don't get overcooked.

Of course the other thing is to have gearing that you can spin on the long climbs while staying within your limits. Nothing works better for figuring that out than doing hard climbs. So fitness first, then experiment on long or steep climbs, whatever the route has.

atwl77

Thanks for all the insight. I'll have another 200k in April and 300k in May before the big, scary, nasty 600k in June, so plenty of time to train and assess. It's not really the difficulty of the climbing that has me worried, it's more that the big climbs are major time suckers if I want to slowly spin at Z2-Z3, plus they become a real pain in the butt when I spin that lightly (I mean, literally). I can try to solve the latter with a better bike fit, but not the former. So, major time sink that eats into the 40-hour limit. And there are two of those. Plus I suspect there will be a nice extra bonus package of endless rolling terrain in between which is my real weakness -- something that's hard to see from an elevation profile.

To be honest, I don't have to do this 600k in June. There's an easier on in August, but that one I run into scheduling issues with family so unless something changes between then and now, I'm more inclined towards attempting the June brevet even if I'm doing the series out-of-order (I haven't done any 400k yet -- that's in July).

Carbonfiberboy 

Practice riding out of the saddle for 1 minute in every 10, by the clock. That'll fix your butt issue. Doing a good bit of anaerobic work (yeah, intervals) on hill repeats or just riding every hill hard on training rides, just a hair below the point where you can feel leg strength peeing out the bottoms of your shoes, will increase your speed in your aerobic zones. You want to be panting on training hills.

If the rollers aren't too big, as you come over the top accelerate in the big ring, full aero, and get some speed, then click those shifters, keeping the cadence high as you start the next climb. Momentum. Ride like you're a tandem. Do it at your normal aerobic pace, but with good technique. If the rollers are over 100', this won't help much.

unterhausen

well, you don't need to sleep for a 600k, so you have even more time.

atwl77

I'm no stranger to suffering intervals (I train with The Sufferfest) and attacking hills (I always try to break my PR on training rides). But my point is, I want to conserve energy on a 600k and not ride hills on a 600k like I'd do on training rides. And surprisingly it's very, very hard to actually keep my HR in Z2-Z3; I just lose focus for a moment and ride up a hill feeling like what's a "comfortable" pace and next thing I know, my chest-strap Wahoo is telling me I'm at the edge of Z4-Z5 already.


(Edit) I suppose I would pace better using a power meter than using HR zone estimates... but that's an expensive accessory I'm not ready to spend on just yet.


(Edit 2) Another possible explanation is that I am severely underestimating HR zones. I know I get different ranges depending on whose calculations I use (from the standard 220-age formula, to RideWithGPS which uses the Karvonen Method, to The Sufferfest which estimates LTHR while doing their fitness/FTP test), and I am basing mine on The Sufferfest (since it is done during an actual physical, instead of just plain math).


Reason for my suspicion is that I never got butt pain before, except in my last 300k's hill climb where I was actually trying to stay within Z3 all the time. It was practically impossible to be in Z2 during the climb, even Z3 was already very difficult to maintain and got me spinning very lightly in granny gearing; anything more and I would be in Z4 already.

jlippinbike

ATWL77 wrote: I want to conserve energy on a 600k and not ride hills on a 600k like I'd do on training rides. And surprisingly it's very, very hard to actually keep my HR in Z2-Z3; I just lose focus for a moment and ride up a hill feeling like what's a "comfortable" pace and next thing I know, my chest-strap Wahoo is telling me I'm at the edge of Z4-Z5 already.

JLIPPINBIKE's response:
Training is the time to suffer. Riding brevets is the time to have fun and finish. What you describe above reminds me of a running marathon I once entered. I started out running in the event at a comfortable pace. Of course, by mile 3 I was toast for the rest of the event. What is “comfortable” is a relative term to the overall duration of the event. For many, the first half of a running marathon is a joke because they have to hold themselves back so much so they will be “fresh” for the second half of the event which is where the race is really decided. Worrying about heart rate zones and power meter zones can be very important during training. But during participation in an event, the simplest way to make sure you don't overdo is to maintain a casual conversation with someone you're riding with or with yourself if you are alone. When you find yourself losing the ability to hold a conversation you are riding above your ability.

Always keep in mind that training is when you do things to improve yourself. Racing (or participation in an event) is the time to show off your ability and skills. Sometimes people enter races or participate in events simply to train. They don't care about the results. But typically a rider's training mentality is different from his or her race mentality.

Another issue you might be having with hills is the gearing you use. How low of a gear can you use on your bike when you climb? A 34x34 or 34x36 is really nice to have. Anybody should be able to climb pretty much any hill with such gearing and be able to carry on a conversation. But if you are riding a 42x28 or something like that, then you are going to have to power your way to the top of some climbs. And you won't be able to carry a conversation. When training the 42x28 on climbs might be great. You are trying to improve your abilities. But during an event you want to show those abilities off, and the 34x36 will probably be the best gear to use on climbs.

Carbonfiberboy 

Yeah, I think your zones are off. A good check is breathing. Try this on your trainer: very gradually bring your HR up over ~ 15 minutes, but only to the point where you are breathing deeply but evenly and not rapidly. Then gradually increase effort again until you'll suddenly feel the need to breathe more rapidly than you have been. Note that HR. A couple beatst below there is the top of zone 2. Now increase effort again, maintaining the deep breathing but allowing breathing rate to increase. Keep slowly increasing effort until you can not longer breathe deeply and evenly anymore and begin to pant. That's the boundary between zones 4 and 5. Note that HR.

So now you have the tops of zones 2 and 4. You can use percentage to find the top of zone 3, but that's a bit arbitrary. I normally do my long climbs on long rides at about ~92% of my LTHR which is 2-4 beats below the panting point.

My impression from your post is that you won't have any trouble staying under the time limit. Take some pickle juice along. Even the best of us can get cramps. I use put mine in a Hammer Flask.

atwl77

Haha, thanks for the vote of confidence.

joewein

There's a 600 km that I've attempted three times so far, each time thinking that it's probably too much for me.

So far I've always DNFed it, covering distances of 498-579 km in the process. Partly I was trying if I could make it further than on the previous attempt by addressing problems (such as not enough warm clothes the first time).

For me this attempt is something way outside my comfort zone and that's always a learning experience.

I'm prepared to do one ride a year that is kind of stupid, just to show myself that I can deal with it even if I can't finish it under the time limit, let alone in comfort.

dual650c

Been there...tried it..failed, succeeded, failed again... Interesting journey.

Last year was a watershed of a sort for me. I decided to try an international 1200km brevet being run by a friend and posted here about it for advice and self-motivation. Ultimately, I didn't get to participate but my "preparation" took me up to and eventually thru the 600km distance. Making the Official Time is an issue for me past about 500km. I just tended to markedly slow down about 5-15kph between 450 and 550km out. Seemed to be little I could do mentally to make the adjustment. Ultimately, I did just grind thru the "speed bump" area and found a 2nd wind of sorts, regaining the lost speed but not actually making up the time in the remaining distance.

Been back on the bike this Spring doing 200, 300 and 400km rides - all solo, none "official" brevets as I don't care for "group rides" much (many call me anti-social, but it's not like I don't actually like people - I'm just cantankerous). All I can say is "not expecting to make the distance in time" is a purely mental thing for me. I finally proved to myself that I could ride the distance. Finishing the ride distance is always more important to me than making a particular time cutoff which is why being "official" isn't important to me. Otoh, those little medals can sure be sparkly sitting on a mantle.

YMMV
This has been a "muled coin" comment/analogy.

GadgetGirlIL

While I do some brevets, I also enjoy going solo so I do a lot of permanents. I pick the day and start time and arrange it with the route owner. Just something to consider. I'm working on a P-12 as well as an R-12. I should also complete rides in 10 states later this month.

unterhausen

it's not hard to ride alone on an organized brevet, just don't ride with anyone. I do it all the time. People get too rambunctious and go up hills at 800 watts and I just let them go. Similarly, it's usually not too hard to drop randonneurs, people tend to want to ride at their own pace. I have done that when I was cranky with someone or just feel like going faster. If you're being cranky, they are probably glad to see you go.

rando_couche

If there was a reasonable chance I'd make the time limit, I'd probably give it a shot if the weather looked amenable. If it was ugly weather or NWIH I'd make the limit, I'd take a pass.

Flounce

Some rides challenge your lungs, some rides challenge your legs, and some rides challenge your mind. The hard ones where you have trouble even finishing on time challenge all three, but more so the mind. Some people are good at climbing hills, other people are really good having that conversation with yourself when you’ve given it all and there is nothing left to give. Arguably, the hardest kind of training.

atwl77

So this 600k is going to start in slightly less than two weeks.

Last week, a small group of randonneurs went on a recce and none of them finished on time. In fact, more than half bailed out halfway, but this is the part that confuses me. A lot of them say this is the toughest part, that you must really be fully prepared or you will either lose a whole lot of time and therefore fail to finish in time, or outright suffer and DNF here:
https://www.strava.com/segments/8834876

But here's the thing, I look at the segment and don't really see anything unusual about the climb. Sure we need to ride over 150km of flat-ish terrain before starting the climb, but even then I don't see it as a problem. They say it's going to be hot all the way up and we need to refill and stock up on water at the bottom, but eh that sounds like S.O.P. especially in this country. Some are even contemplating changing to compact cranksets and/or long cage derailleurs to fit 32T or 34T just for this.

I asked some of the people in my LBS -- most of them not randonneurs, but these are guys I have ridden with, and who would do a 200k at an avg speed of over 30km/h (18.6mph) -- and they also say they don't see anything particularly unusual about the climb. One of them theorized it could be the thinner atmosphere near the top, but even so it should be very doable as long as you pace yourself properly.

So... I don't know. Part of me says just ride the same way I do, pace myself properly, as I'm not the type to be scared of hills (while I don't consider myself a specialist "climber" as I have ridden with much stronger climbers than me, but I think of myself as pretty experienced and capable with hills), as long as I don't do anything stupid I'll get over the hill in time. I tell myself should only be worried if certain people I personally know, whom I know are really strong riders, gave the same warning but so far, I don't have that specific kind feedback available. On the other hand, I can't ignore the recce report and something must be up that I'm not seeing.

Any thoughts?

kingston 

That does look like a long climb. I'd definitely bring low gears and take it nice and easy making sure not to overdo it on the first 150. You'll be fine.

83cannondale

I guess I'm sorta slow - My thought going in is to conserve energy enough to finish, even if not on time. - I tried 2 600km last year. DNF the first with only 35 miles to go, but was well over time. The second I did finish and get credit for. IMO I need gearing that lets me ride up anything without "burning matches", in my case I ride a triple with 30, 46, 48 and a rear 6 speed with 13-32. My low is 30-32 which is pretty good, though I have a 34 I'm going to try. I've even discovered that walking some of the shorter hills toward the end of the 600km is a welcome relief from the saddle. Doing hills "inchworm" style, out of the seat, going slow, thrusting with arms in time with pedal stroke, gets me up with less effort.

As far as ride strategy, my thought going in is usually that I'll do the best I can, ride my own ride, eat well and often, be quick at the controls and be ready to ride all night if I have to. And I've had to... As to finishing on time, well maybe, maybe not, but being resolved to finish, come hell or high water, puts my head where it needs to be, mostly -

My 2 cents anyway. Not an expert -