Rolling resistance in real world
#26
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I’ve commuted on several different types of bikes with several different types and widths of tires and I always get to work at about the same time.
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This is all about measuring the glycogen breakdown as I see it. I figured there'd be a blood volume increase and some would make its way to the bladder, amounts which you couldn't really measure very easily. But if say 10% of it exits in respiration, and you could weigh the difference, then those other accumulations wouldn't change the before/after weight and you could multiply by 10. Or whatever the formula might be. We breathe out water vapor for sure, but I don't know if there is a reliable curve relating water produced and water respired.
If you want some other reasons why you can't do it, glucose metabolism releases water, but there's also a lot of water bound in the crystalline structure of glycogen in a non-stoichiometric way, which could only be accounted for approximately. also, the amount of water diverted to urine depends minutely on hydration and sodium repletion status.
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IME blood volume and tissue H2O storage increases, and then you pee it out over the next day or two if there's been enough riding and effort time to accumulate a serious amount of H2O. And of course the sweat and respiration losses, as you say. That's not precise of course, just IME. There's also the water released by glycogen breakdown, which I think accounts for a lot of that pee.
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Doesn't work that way. The respiratory epithelium, where gas exchange takes place, is saturated all the time or you're dead. So, only purely physical factors, such as humidity, respiratory rate, and airflow velocity, determine the amount of vapor expired.
If you want some other reasons why you can't do it, glucose metabolism releases water, but there's also a lot of water bound in the crystalline structure of glycogen in a non-stoichiometric way, which could only be accounted for approximately. also, the amount of water diverted to urine depends minutely on hydration and sodium repletion status.
If you want some other reasons why you can't do it, glucose metabolism releases water, but there's also a lot of water bound in the crystalline structure of glycogen in a non-stoichiometric way, which could only be accounted for approximately. also, the amount of water diverted to urine depends minutely on hydration and sodium repletion status.
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I'm pretty certain that's not true or possible, but, for the sake of discussion, what mechanism do you have in mind for it?
Last edited by MoAlpha; 10-19-19 at 10:30 AM.
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My initial idea was just weigh the body (& perspiration) before and after exercise, the difference in weight could only be from whatever is respired. CO2 component would also vary, originating in the body, perhaps an immeasurable difference in weight (?) It would be calculable for a certain energy production, given an assumption about the energy pathways utilized.
My original questions were: 1) how much H2O is produced in the first place, enough to measure? and 2) *could* it be related to water in respiration? You say 2 is impossible, and I don't really have a problem with that even if I don't fully accept your reasoning. But the showstopper is all the *other* water expelled, which you can't begin to account for without knowing at least the per-minute respiration volume. So that would all be back to a real lab.
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Active transport maybe? That water has to come from somewhere after all, and it's not necessarily just passive osmosis. These guys imply that that it happens https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3823651
My initial idea was just weigh the body (& perspiration) before and after exercise, the difference in weight could only be from whatever is respired. CO2 component would also vary, originating in the body, perhaps an immeasurable difference in weight (?) It would be calculable for a certain energy production, given an assumption about the energy pathways utilized.
My original questions were: 1) how much H2O is produced in the first place, enough to measure? and 2) *could* it be related to water in respiration? You say 2 is impossible, and I don't really have a problem with that even if I don't fully accept your reasoning. But the showstopper is all the *other* water expelled, which you can't begin to account for without knowing at least the per-minute respiration volume. So that would all be back to a real lab.
My initial idea was just weigh the body (& perspiration) before and after exercise, the difference in weight could only be from whatever is respired. CO2 component would also vary, originating in the body, perhaps an immeasurable difference in weight (?) It would be calculable for a certain energy production, given an assumption about the energy pathways utilized.
My original questions were: 1) how much H2O is produced in the first place, enough to measure? and 2) *could* it be related to water in respiration? You say 2 is impossible, and I don't really have a problem with that even if I don't fully accept your reasoning. But the showstopper is all the *other* water expelled, which you can't begin to account for without knowing at least the per-minute respiration volume. So that would all be back to a real lab.
The gas exchange surface in the alveoli, is huge by comparison to the upper airway, like 70 m sq., and that's where most of your transpired water comes from. That surface is one of the body's holiest and evolutionarily conserved places, where everything is optimized and tightly regulated for gas exchange. Drying there is clinically unknown and when it gets too wet, as in pneumonia or pulmonary edema, very bad things happen, so while it's impossible to rule out, I would be very surprised if it responded to metabolic signals by changing the rate of water transpiration.
My other problem, as we've discussed, is what that signal might be. To answer your question, yes, a meaningful amount of water is produced by carbohydrate metabolism—it can be estimated and be taken into account when computing a patient's or an athlete's water balance—but it is safe to say that it is undetectable in an exercising athlete because of the much, much, greater rate of fluid losses through sweating (which is unquantifiable too) and respiration.
Well that's too much and I'm sure I haven't convinced you on the primary question, but it's fun to think about this stuff.
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It would have to be active transport and the article you found seems to imply an active process in the upper airway, which can dry out. That makes sense, but it's related to drying, not exercise. Incidentally paper is too old for me to be able to access the full text online, but it is irresistible to note the small sample and the huge multiple comparisons problem with the minute-by-minute measurements. It's from back in the era when I started my scientific career and boy were things easier!
My other problem, as we've discussed, is what that signal might be. To answer your question, yes, a meaningful amount of water is produced by carbohydrate metabolism—it can be estimated and be taken into account when computing a patient's or an athlete's water balance—but it is safe to say that it is undetectable in an exercising athlete because of the much, much, greater rate of fluid losses through sweating (which is unquantifiable too) and respiration.
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It has been quantified using Chung's (@rchung) virtual elevation model which outputs both CdA and Crr.
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Depends on the length of the ride. After a long ride, I'll pee normally after, but will then continue to pee more than normal over the next 24 hours or so. It's not just me. A long ride is over 200 miles. One really doesn't want to get dehydrated on a long ride - steady-state is best. Could be glycogen, could be accumulated sodium or some other factor. On the usual short training rides what you say is true. My experience may not apply to everyone, but the phenomena is known.
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