rgvg

Question about stopping at an intersection at a side street. If the cyclist stops at the side street at a red light, and the cross street is two lanes each way with the right hand lane not so busy, and there's a car behind the cyclist wanting to turn right, what is supposed to happen?

Often the car gets antsy and wants to go around the cyclist because the lane the car is turning into is not very busy and the cyclist needs to wait for the green light.

Is the car supposed to wait?

Should the cyclist position himself more to towards the center of the road to forestall chances of the car going around him?

Thanks

caloso

It depends on the intersection. If there is a dedicated right turn lane, then I will usually stop on the line that separates the through lane and turn lane. If not, you have to make a judgement call based on the width of the lane, heaviness of traffic, etc. But I don't recommend stopping against the curb. That just invites a right hook.

rgvg

In the particular case I'm thinking of the cyclist and car are on the side street with no right turn lane. It's only one lane.

I've seen a case where the cyclist and motorist are yelling at each other because the car wants to turn right and the cyclist is yelling "you have to give me space"...

I haven't been cycling long but I've been the cyclist in this scenario, as well as the driver in other cases. This morning I did drive and go around a cyclist stopped at the curb, and after I'd completed the turn his light went green and he went across. So in hindsight waiting for him would have been a much safer option, though nothing bad happened (this time).

So you're saying in this case, it's best for the cyclist not to stop so close to the curb? The car should wait behind?

rgvg

And I should say a lot of the intersections here have what I suppose are cyclist controlled traffic lights next to the curb. You know, those buttons you push to turn the light green (and the cross light red). For convenience they are close to the curb where the cyclist can push it, handily inviting the cyclist to stop close to the curb.

Ninety5rpm

Legally, the cyclist can stop anywhere in the lane and the right-turner behind has to wait if there is no room to the right of the cyclist.

But why not leave that room?

My habit is to stop way far left in these situations (I'm going straight or left) precisely to leave room for right turners, whether on bicycle or motorcycle. Before it was my habit I would move over to give them room. But now that it's my habit I'm just there far enough left by default.

Happy Feet

When I stop in those situations I move to the curb (or far left if it works) to allow right turns on reds. No need to be a dick.

When the opposing light turns yellow I come off the curb and position myself forward so that drivers beside me clearly see I am traveling through and cannot turn right then. No more risk of a right hook unless a driver blatantly drives into me which they would also do if I were blocking the lane.

I feel no need to block right turns when it does not serve any purpose. I'm a daily commuter and travel the same route each day so it is in my best interest to garner good relationships with the drivers around me and not make them resentful of my presence by being obstructive when I don't need to be.

I ride a bike, which allows me to travel through traffic easier in some situations and I repay that advantage by allowing traffic to flow easier when I can.

Ninety5rpm

Yesterday I approached such an intersection and stopped far left as usual. Then another cyclist arrived and stopped next to the curb, with right foot on the curb. The a right turning car arrived and had to stop behind the cyclist at the curb. And wait.

Stopping far enough left to leave space for right turners is far better than stopping at the curb, I think.

Why invite right hooks like that?

Happy Feet

Depends on the intersection. The situation dictates and I wouldn't argue one over the other.

Sometimes left works, other times it leaves me sitting out too exposed to a passing clip.

I tend to the right because I feel I am very visible and aware (clothing, lights, mirror) and pretty good at projecting my intent via posture. I don't really fear right hooks from a stopped position.

rgvg

Thanks for the advice. I'll try to keep left in these instances then and keep my eyes peeled. I was told that putting your foot on the curb is not a good idea as some drivers may think you've stopped and aren't intending to go forward.

bye

Ninety5rpm

Not sure what you mean by "too exposed to a passing clip". I've never heard of anyone on a bicycle hit who was stopped far left to leave room for right turners. There's no need to venture off into the other side of the road.

Ninety5rpm

Whether your foot is on the curb or not, you're positioned there (that far right) for a right turn. That's not where you want to be if you want everyone to whom it matters to know that you're going straight.

elocs

I've ridden a bike in my city of 50,000 for 58 years now and in past years I've encountered this situation and normally in a straight/right turn lane I've always waited with my right foot on the curb and I've never had a problem. The key is to not be waiting for the light as far forward as you can get but be back a little ways because no car is going to drive over the sidewalk to make a right turn.

These days on busy streets I ride on the sidewalk which is perfectly legal in my city, so I am in no danger of being struck by a car. By law here, in the crosswalk I enjoy all of the protections provided to a pedestrian but I have a mirror on the left so I do take a peek before I cross to see if a car is turning right.

Having also driven a car for decades and been on the other side of the car/bike equation I really see no point in doing things while riding my bike which would antagonize motor vehicles. We expect motor vehicles to signal their intentions but I can remember while driving that I often had no clue as to what a cyclist intends to do. I do know that as a cyclist that any up close and personal encounter or dispute I have with a motor vehicle will likely not end well for me. But I've learned that the more I avoid mixing with motor vehicles, the safer I feel.

Happy Feet

I've never had a problem with putting a foot on the curb. For context that's 45 years of commuting to college, work, long distance touring at times living car free and working as a bike courier.

Putting your foot on the curb signals you are stopped? Yes, because you are stopped! Why tie up a lane through a whole light cycle?

I should add I tend to stop behind the turn radius of cars so they aren't going to right hook me regardless. This allows cars to turn right. When the yellow light comes and I am going to begin again I check my mirror and move forward, cutting off the angle of turn for the cars. It's not a bunch of cars that need to see this.. only the one car behind me. They stop all others behind them equally. The posture I assume also says I am going to ride forward. Someone pretty well has to intentionally want to run me over that way, which they would also do if I were in the lane the whole time.

As to stopping left or right. I ride defensively and do not imagine I am bulletproof on my bike just because cars are supposed to notice me. If the road is designed so that a car can clearly pass to my right and I have a safe zone I will stop left. I do this at one intersection every day on my way to work. On the other hand some roads make it safer to stop far right.

Happy Feet

Sounds good until you think about it.

To whom does it matter? Only people traveling in the same direction who are stopped at the same light. I advance to the front of the line (one of the advantages of riding a bike) so there is only one driver who needs to know what I am doing and before the light changes I advance in front of them so they know I am traveling through. Pretty hard to misinterpret my posture. Opposing traffic has to stop for cars going straight and if I'm the only one there my posture and strobe light pointed straight ahead usually says I'm going straight.

At that point, if they were completely oblivious to my presence, I'd rather be on their right than directly in front or on their left. I can bail from the right but bailing from the left puts me into oncoming traffic.

elocs

Agreed. I would stop by the fat white line where the cars are supposed to stop which keeps me far enough back from the street where the car is turning right. I stay next to the curb with my foot up and in my city the gutters are kept very clean by street sweepers especially on busy streets.
If there are 3 lanes with the far right one being for right turns I would get to the right of the front car in the straight lane and slightly ahead, making my way towards the right when the light changes. It's always worked fine for me with no problems. But as I've said before, I no longer ride in the busy streets anymore.

Ninety5rpm

If you arrive at the light while it's red and come to a complete stop before it turns green, sure.

But if you're intending to do that and then the signal suddenly turns green when you're, say, 30 feet from the intersection, now you're positioned for a right turn with faster traffic on your left starting to accelerate, some of whom may be turning right.

Yeah, I rode in that manner for decades, and once in a while I'd get jammed up. I never got hit, but nobody should be required to have the skills, vigilance and understanding that situation can require. I find it to be much safer and calmer to do what I do now - habitually move far enough left to allow space for right turners on my right. Then, if the light turns green before I come to a stop, I'm well positioned, and can safely move right to facilitate passing if necessary.

Leisesturm

It's as simple as this: if you stop at the curb, cars in your lane will wait behind you. Period. Anything else is illegal. Period. Even if you are positioned towards the curb, most cars, the vast majority, will not try to pass you even if you are waving them on. The ones that would... I would not try to stop them. If you want to encourage cars to filter past and turn right, there is only one way to do it: stop well short of the crosswalk/curb. Well short, at least a car length short. That will make it plain as pie that you are not in active possession of the lane and are expecting right turners to go past you. Some will, some won't, if they won't it's on them. If you position yourself to the left of the lane then you had best be over the line into the next lane over if you expect any but the most testosterone laden mouth breather to take that bait and go past. As long as you are someway in the lane and up at the crosswalk, few, if any, motorists are going to do anything but wait till the light turns green and you go on your way.

Happy Feet

Not my experience commuting on a daily basis. Cars and I seem to get along just fine sharing the same road without all the hyperbolistic drama. It's weird but true. I also drive so for me it's not an Us vs Them conflict. Whether riding or driving I can almost always put myself in the others position and act for the benefit of both.

Ninety5rpm, I would not argue one way or the other as I do each on occasion and would only say do what one feels is safe for the given situation.

Viich

I usually pull to the left edge of the lane to allow cars to turn right on the red. Depends on many factors though, including the road past the intersection. Bigger intersections where I filter on the right normally have a right turn cut off or lane, else I stay back from cars with a right turn signal on.

Cyclist0084

I've had a few instances, when far left in a lane, where oncoming traffic has drifted over into their 'other side of the road' and has come "this close" to clipping me, or worse.

work4bike

I just position myself so the motorist can make the right turn. It's true that legally I don't have to do that, but since I can it's best to be courteous.

Colnago Mixte

Same here. I have a signature move that I have never seen anyone else do. It's part self-preservation, part courtesy.

I stop about a car length short of the limit line / crosswalk, and put my right foot on the curb. This allows any cars wanting to make a right turn to cut over as far right as they need to while executing the turn. Most people on bikes waiting for the light to change position themselves right on the corner, effectively blocking anyone from turning right. This annoying for cars when a bike needlessly blocks the right turn lane for no reason. I don't blame them for getting pissed.

Having come very close to getting clipped by cars and trucks turning right on previous occasions, I figure, why put myself in danger needlessly by stopping right at the corner? I'm blocking the turn lane, AND putting myself in danger. Just to position myself 8-10 feet further ahead in traffic? Not worth it.

When the light changes, I merge back into traffic the best I can. Always seems to work out well for me. YMMV.

work4bike

I've do that as well sometimes, except I stop a couple/few car lengths behind and when I see the first car is not going to make a right I take the lane directly behind the car(s) in the lane.

BTW, I probably don't have to tell anyone here, but there are a fair number of cars that don't use their turn signal, they just turn, so you gotta always be on the lookout for that before FRAP'ing.

WNCGoater

Blah, blah, blah...

work4bike

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