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Two bikers down

Old 07-17-19, 10:31 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Let me posit that she likely was making a left hand turn out of the parking lot.

A left turn means crossing the bike lane plus about 2 traffic lanes, plus merging into the left traffic lane on the opposite side of the road.

There is a curb placed in the road, preventing pulling into the center lane, then merging as a 2-step process.

Plus, it divides one's attention between vehicles in both directions.

So, see a hole... and HIT THE GAS!
I see road stains showing it's common to make a right and cross over lanes to make a quick left. Not a good situation...
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Old 07-17-19, 10:50 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by curbtender
I see road stains showing it's common to make a right and cross over lanes to make a quick left. Not a good situation...
That is possible too, and would account for the bikes being scattered across all lanes of traffic on the one side of the road. And, being a bit more to the photo-left.

However, it also means that the driver generally only needs to concentrate on traffic from her left, and not from both directions.

Right hand turns are generally easier than left hand turns, unless traffic is too heavy to safely move.
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Old 07-17-19, 11:17 AM
  #28  
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I thought the video clip(s) explained she was turning right, into the same direction the guys were moving, but I may be mis-remembering. if she hit them while making a left, it would be real hard to turn the vehicle around so that it winds up as it did. just turning right, into them, & over them, then stopping, is more likely. (with respect to the deceased & injured)
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Old 07-17-19, 11:34 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by OldTryGuy
Sadly, many people don't even see cars or trucks or motorcycles. Just had a 4 wheel turn left as 2 wheel (motorcycle) approached. 2 wheel went into passenger door resulting in 2 wheel rider death + passenger in 4 wheel vehicle. Didn't see??? and/or a lack of comprehension in speed of approaching 2 wheel???
This is the classic car/motorcycle accident. And, FWIW, how I lost my first (of 6) Ducati.
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Old 07-17-19, 12:13 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Kedosto
An example of one my most hated and feared vehicular interactions; the 90˚ approach.

I hate, Hate, HATE when a vehicle approaches at a 90˚ angle such as side streets or parking lot exits and we come together at the same time. Drivers are looking for vehicles not bicycles and often roll right through without a careful stop. I've had more close calls than I care to think about over the 90˚ situation. I'd like to see the full extent of the law applied here, but seriously doubt it will happen. One dead, one fighting for his life, and one who wasn't paying attention. So sad.
let me start that i'm not blaming the cyclists here, but just offering my take based on the info provided here.

being a regular commuting cyclist in rush hour settings has solidified my instincts to be hyper-alert and to assume that EVERY vehicle i see is going to do something stupid. so, on the 90 degree pull-out, i make sure i'm ready to react in an instant. i have to wonder if these cyclists were alert and ready to react to someone pulling out from a parking lot, which by the way, didn't look to be concealed in any way. again, i'm certainly not blaming them, but unless the driver came flying out of the parking lot, they should have been aware and ready to react.
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Old 07-17-19, 06:31 PM
  #31  
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Drawing on personal experience (I had someone pull out in front of front of me at fairly low speed), which may have nothing to do with this specific situation... The car coming from the right (entering the flow of traffic) is not looking at bicycles close to the curb which is where the bikers would be since that's probably where the bicycle lane is - they're looking at oncoming cars and since that's all they're looking for, the bicyclists were invisible.
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Old 07-17-19, 07:22 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by adablduya
being a regular commuting cyclist in rush hour settings has solidified my instincts to be hyper-alert and to assume that EVERY vehicle i see is going to do something stupid. so, on the 90 degree pull-out, i make sure i'm ready to react in an instant. i have to wonder if these cyclists were alert and ready to react to someone pulling out from a parking lot, which by the way, didn't look to be concealed in any way. again, i'm certainly not blaming them, but unless the driver came flying out of the parking lot, they should have been aware and ready to react.
Hard to say. It is a bit surprising that two cyclists went down hard. Perhaps they were riding side-by-side.

Over the years, I've had a few vehicles pull out at me. Sometimes followed by a "Sorry".

I've either stopped short, or swerved far to the left to avoid them.

I do tend to anticipate vehicles that look like they might move.

But, there is always that one that one misses.

But... then about 6 months ago... after decades of good luck, there was that crosswalk. I was doing a "square crossing" from bike path to bike lane. I waited for the crosswalk. Car pulled up next to me, completely in the middle of the cross walk. When the crosswalk changed, I was trying to figure out what to do... I started moving, and I think was reaching to tap the hood... when BLAM... left on red. and I was flat on the ground. Probably some wheel damage, but I survived. I've learned at that intersection to do the square crossing the other direction that has no left on red.
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Old 07-18-19, 06:07 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Rick
People are not seeing what they don't expect to see. I have trained myself to look for every sign, pedestrian, bicyclist, dog and rodent etc. This takes practice.
You're right, it takes continuous practice and constant vigilance. It is so easy to mis-apply your focus to the goal rather than the process. I've done it, both driving (almost hit a runner crossing in front of me at a stop sign once) and cycling (@ stop sign, pulled out in front of an oncoming car, no obstructions, caught motion in the corner of my eye and converted a crossing to a right turn just in time - still don't know how I missed seeing an entire car).

(Not intended to excuse the driver, this post is strictly focused on my actions.)
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Old 07-18-19, 06:28 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by noimagination
still don't know how I missed seeing an entire car
It is not unheard of for cyclists to run smack into the back of a parked car.

Sometimes good visibility... Sometimes not.
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Old 07-18-19, 07:44 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
It is not unheard of for cyclists to run smack into the back of a parked car.

Sometimes good visibility... Sometimes not.
So what are you saying, these cyclists both swung wide to avoid hitting a car in the roadway and were subsequently run over by the car exiting the garage, not guessing the SUV wouldn't stop at merely taking up more space than the typical, parked car?
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Old 07-18-19, 09:59 PM
  #36  
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No, simply agreeing with @noimagination that road blindness affects everyone including cyclists as well as motorists.

I find myself often concentrating on rocks and road debris, and pedestrians can sneak up on me.
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Old 07-19-19, 07:25 AM
  #37  
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Someone mentioned the pillars of vehicles obstructing views.

The very rules for vehicle design and improvements for passenger safety in cars has made pedestrians and cyclist more vulnerable.

Just look at the diffference between say a 1990 VW Jetta and a 2019. The window height is probably half and the size of the A/B/C pillar widths are probably double to triple!

So, for that problem at slow speed at least.......cars now have to have sensors and cameras to know what's around them! Side sensors for merging. Rear cameras for backing.

Vehicle design is to blame a good bit.
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Old 07-19-19, 10:52 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
Just look at the diffference between say a 1990 VW Jetta and a 2019. The window height is probably half and the size of the A/B/C pillar widths are probably double to triple!
https://www.wheels.ca/car-reviews/fi...kswagen-jetta/



I presume the passenger compartment is about the same height. I sat in a FOX in a junkyard a while ago, and just didn't fit... don't know why it would have been different from the Rabbit.

But, the hood appears higher, thicker doors, etc. I can't tell about the pillars, but the mirrors look big.

One advantage of the newer car is that it likely has electronic multi-directional adjustable seats. So smaller drivers can get to the optimal height easier. No little old ladies that can't see over the steering wheels.... hopefully.

Mom's Prius is good at detecting cross traffic when backing. I know it detects cars and pedestrians, and I would assume bikes.

In bad weather, one periodically has to clean the camera and sensors.

However, driving forward, it has some sensors, but certainly not as aggressive... Perhaps a light on the mirror when a collision would be imminent? I don't know if other brands would be better for situations like pulling out into traffic from a parking lot.
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Old 07-19-19, 11:06 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
https://www.wheels.ca/car-reviews/fi...kswagen-jetta/



I presume the passenger compartment is about the same height. I sat in a FOX in a junkyard a while ago, and just didn't fit... don't know why it would have been different from the Rabbit.

But, the hood appears higher, thicker doors, etc. I can't tell about the pillars, but the mirrors look big.

One advantage of the newer car is that it likely has electronic multi-directional adjustable seats. So smaller drivers can get to the optimal height easier. No little old ladies that can't see over the steering wheels.... hopefully.

Mom's Prius is good at detecting cross traffic when backing. I know it detects cars and pedestrians, and I would assume bikes.

In bad weather, one periodically has to clean the camera and sensors.

However, driving forward, it has some sensors, but certainly not as aggressive... Perhaps a light on the mirror when a collision would be imminent? I don't know if other brands would be better for situations like pulling out into traffic from a parking lot.
Lol, I still remember seeing a tall guy driving either a Fox or Jetta to a meet years and years ago. His arms were so long and the door to window ratio so short, he was "hugging" the car door with his hand UNDER the car while driving down the road.

I saw it and was like, wtf!

I remember my 1990 Jetta felt like a fishbowl compared to our 2008 Audi A6 Avant.
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Old 07-19-19, 11:20 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
I remember my 1990 Jetta felt like a fishbowl compared to our 2008 Audi A6 Avant.
Hmmm...

I remember driving an aunt's 280SL a few years ago... WOW!!! Excellent visibility in all directions (even with the top).

Forward visibility is OK on the new Toyota Prius cars, but they really are bad for rear quarter panel visibility. One really has to count on the mirrors, sensors, and cameras.
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Old 07-19-19, 11:23 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Kedosto
An example of one my most hated and feared vehicular interactions; the 90˚ approach.

I hate, Hate, HATE when a vehicle approaches at a 90˚ angle such as side streets or parking lot exits and we come together at the same time. Drivers are looking for vehicles not bicycles and often roll right through without a careful stop.

What you describe was THE number one reason that about six months ago I bought a quality front strobe light for my bike.
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Old 07-19-19, 02:18 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Hmmm...

I remember driving an aunt's 280SL a few years ago... WOW!!! Excellent visibility in all directions (even with the top).

Forward visibility is OK on the new Toyota Prius cars, but they really are bad for rear quarter panel visibility. One really has to count on the mirrors, sensors, and cameras.
If you need unobstructed view...
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Old 07-19-19, 03:45 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by curbtender
If you need unobstructed view...
Working on something similar, but American Made.

I'm not sure about the benefits of half windshields.
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Old 07-19-19, 04:01 PM
  #44  
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I suppose we're drifting...

I'm not seeing notes of criminal charges. And, I'm not certain whether criminal charges are necessary for an accident, but perhaps it will help people in general have greater general awareness (although make charges as bad for stopping as hit&run... & what does one expect)?

I did read/see where it said she was doing a "right"... but no notes if it was a right followed by left.

Also, nothing indicating how two cyclists were hit. I was wondering if cyclists riding side-by-side may be less attentive than solo cyclists.
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Old 07-19-19, 04:23 PM
  #45  
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The hidden second amendment clause

The right to arm yourself with an automobile.... I blame the state DMVs... they keep giving incomptent gas holes licenses....

Last edited by Digger Goreman; 07-19-19 at 04:24 PM. Reason: rewrite/spelling
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Old 07-20-19, 08:50 AM
  #46  
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There has been an update since the accident... The biker that was killed was 70 and the injured biker was 63. Both were riding in the bike lane and were said to have had the right of way. Both bikers were wearing helmets. This could be the way I go...
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Old 07-20-19, 08:59 AM
  #47  
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I think some folks don't realize how much the earpiece on their sunglasses may block their side vision...
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Old 07-20-19, 11:43 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by noimagination
You're right, it takes continuous practice and constant vigilance. It is so easy to mis-apply your focus to the goal rather than the process. I've done it, both driving (almost hit a runner crossing in front of me at a stop sign once) and cycling (@ stop sign, pulled out in front of an oncoming car, no obstructions, caught motion in the corner of my eye and converted a crossing to a right turn just in time - still don't know how I missed seeing an entire car).

(Not intended to excuse the driver, this post is strictly focused on my actions.)
Look Twice. Make it a habit. Too many drivers depend on a single glance. Looking Twice gives you a chance to see a changing, moving scene.
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Old 07-20-19, 01:01 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by McBTC
There has been an update since the accident... The biker that was killed was 70 and the injured biker was 63. Both were riding in the bike lane and were said to have had the right of way. Both bikers were wearing helmets. This could be the way I go...


My guess is that they were socializing (not paying as much attention as they could), and not as quick with their reactions as a 20/30/40 year old cyclist.

Nonetheless, it was the car that pulled out into traffic.

Originally Posted by genec
Look Twice. Make it a habit. Too many drivers depend on a single glance. Looking Twice gives you a chance to see a changing, moving scene.
Also look BOTH directions.

I'm trying to remember if one is supposed to make the last glance to the direction of the first lane one crosses, or the second lane one crosses. I think it was to look to the left (for traffic from left) just before one starts moving, then glance right before one crosses the next lane (traffic from right).

And, of course, also look ahead.

I suppose one needs to keep up constant surveillance.
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Old 07-20-19, 01:32 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK


My guess is that they were socializing (not paying as much attention as they could), and not as quick with their reactions as a 20/30/40 year old cyclist.

Nonetheless, it was the car that pulled out into traffic.



Also look BOTH directions.

I'm trying to remember if one is supposed to make the last glance to the direction of the first lane one crosses, or the second lane one crosses. I think it was to look to the left (for traffic from left) just before one starts moving, then glance right before one crosses the next lane (traffic from right).

And, of course, also look ahead.

I suppose one needs to keep up constant surveillance.
Amen on both directions... far too many times as a pedestrian would I see some dunderhead determined to make a right turn onto a road who would crane their neck looking left, and would NEVER look right. Sure, as a ped, I could see this and just stop and wait for mr stupid to continue. But it does point out that mr stupid never even bothered to look.
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