sloppyfoos

Hello! As I am getting up there in years, I want join my friends who go on longer bike rides on paved trails (40 - 60 miles) on their road bikes. I was wondering if a full suspension Mountain e bike would be a good option because it would be more comfortable due to the fork and suspension as compared to a regular commuting ebike? I didnt know if the commuting ebikes such as the Trek Alliant series were geared differently for putting more miles on them than the mountain bikes?
I am looking mainly at The Trek Alliant 7s or 8's and the Trek Rail 5 and the Specialized Turbo Levo because there are local-ish dealers in the area and i am not very mechanical savvy to service my own bike.
I plan on spending around $4000 maybe up to $5000 ( which is more than my car is worth!) for something decent because it would increase my socialization, happiness level, and get me out of the house more. I would also set up the handlebars on the mountain bike to be more upright for more of the 'commuter' feel, but want the most comfort out of the bike that I can get. Also, can you get the extra batteries for the mountain bikes like you can for the commuters to extend your range?
Any opinions and advice for a newbie would be greatly appreciated! Thank you! -- Tim

unterhausen

Welcome to the forum. I don't really see anything wrong with your plan, but I have some thoughts.

I think you would want to change out the tires on the Rail 5

The Turbo Levo has a lot more power, probably more than you need for your desired use.

I think more bikes should come with dropper posts so people can have their saddle set at the right height while riding and drop it for when stopped. So that's an advantage of the full suspension bikes if that makes any difference to you

I'm not sure how much more comfortable full suspension would be in practice. For example, mtb come with really short stems so going shorter isn't an option. This might put you in a more forward position than you like. You could get some Jones bars to make you a little more upright.

2old

Only thing for me to add is that to consider the roads you're traveling on. Maybe rear suspension (or any) isn't needed. This will make the bike much lighter and less expensive. I've been using a rigid eMTB for 5+ years, but the roads in socal are very well maintained.

DukeO

Have you checked out Sondors new Rockstar. It may not be the most nimble downhill-er But it will blow away any German emtb climbing and can keep up with any road bike on the flat or climbing. I have been riding all most the same setup for three years. To me it is the best of both worlds. A bafang Ultra Max is one of the very few mid-drives that also has a thumb throttle which makes it safer and more fun to ride. You have to pre order if you want one for 2599. It will be over 3500 once they are in stock. https://shop.sondors.com/pages/rockstar

cat0020

Just so I get a clear in my head.
40-60 mile bike ride on paved trail, that's 2-3 hours of pedaling, non-stop at 20 mph.
Do you plan on pedaling that long on a bike per every sitting?
If you include stops for food, drink, that can easily turn into 3-4 hour ride, do you want to dedicate that much time in cycling?
If you do, a road bike might be a better choice than mt. bike.

What is the distance for your commute?
How much do you weigh?
Do you live in a cold (sub-freezing temperature) climate?
All that would help determine the motor/battery of your e-bike purchase.

Long hours in the saddle doesn't really mix well with upright riding position with high handlebar location.
The higher the handlebar the more weight you shift onto the saddle, you will need a saddle that can support your weight & comfort needs if most of your body weight is on the saddle.

sloppyfoos

I Live in Iowa so I won't be out in temperatures that are too cold. I weigh about 155 pounds. I think a lot of the riding would be doing the paved trails and stopping from place to place to get drinks, food, rest, and socialize. I wouldn't be pedaling continuously for the entire distance / route. I just know that most of the group that does those kinds of rides have road bikes and area able to do longer rides than I am capable of doing so I wanted something that can keep up with them for the day. Would a mountain bike be ok for this type of riding or would a cruiser/ commuter be more optimal? Thank you.

cat0020

Most other riders ride road bikes on those long distance rides for good reasons, more efficient, better riding position, etc..
Mt. bike with wide knobby tires are going to eat up lot of energy you crank out on pavement over long distance.. also noisy.
Mt. bike would be ok, but you will be using far more energy just to keep up..
I would suggest start with shorter rides, 10-15-20 mile to begin with, work your way up to longer distance before you spend $3-4k on a bike.
If your eventual goal is to ride long distance on paved trails/roads, road bikes are still the best for those riding with a group.

veganbikes

Yeah please don't ride that on any trails. If you want to ride it on the road go for it but keep the motorcycles off the trails (and no I am not talking about normal pedal assisted e-bikes but throttled bikes and bikes with way too much power), Bikes and e-bikes are fine but tearing up trails is just not OK.

Throttles are certainly not safer, the idea you can just launch a bike on accident without being on it is not a safety feature. Throttles are crucial on a motorcycle but on a pedal bike I would rather just have assistance when I pedal. If I wanted a motorcycle why not just get one?

I would wait to purchase till you see an actual one pictured everything they have is 3d models one of which has some photo shopping it looks like but wasn't done super well. There is little info on it about what comes with it so you might get some really cheap stuff especially at that price. Their launch video shows different parts from what it shows in the 3d model and I think if it actually becomes real (as the video showed no riding) it might be a very different machine.


Going back to the original topic. I wouldn't buy a full suspension bike for commuting unless my commute happened to be on some really rad trails but you gotta be one lucky person to have that. I would rather have something with good wide tires, a Kinekt seatpost and not super duper heavy. Also it has to be something I can get support for at different shops and something that doesn't require a ton of work on my end. A full suspension bike is more than I want to deal with and have to keep clean for commuting.

BiciMan

To me the most important variable with ebikes of any kind is the significant weight that you're pedaling forward, even without suspension. Each level of suspension and any extra battery will increase that weight. Of course, the motor makes the pedaling easier, especially with any climbing that is involved, even with moderate climbing. But if you're on relatively good paved roads, any suspension gain will be relative, and pushing less weight for 30-40 miles may be the most efficient and doable strategy. I'm into my eighth decade of riding myself, and my next electric will be the lightest one I can buy for the money I'm willing to spend. The most comfortable bike I have is undoubtedly my full suspension bike, and I am sure a FS electric would also be the most comfortable; but, for distance I will always prioritize light weight.
Disclaimer: our bodies age differently, and what works for my body may not work for you or others. If, for instance, I had significant back or joint issues, my requirements and priorities might be different, maybe significantly so.

chas58

I have road and mountain ebikes. Riding them, its pretty similar. The road bike with the same kit, goes farther as is is much more efficient. speed wise they are the same.

You should test ride some bikes, and just see what you are more comfortable on. Fit is key. If you are riding with road bikes, you don't need full suspension, or really any suspension as the bigger tires will give you a much more comfortable ride than any road bike (just don't pump them up too much). Fit is key.

From your description - you need to know the range and top speed you want. Many bikes just cut out at 20mph (or 15mph if you live in Europe, lol). If your buddies are doing 21mph, you'll get dropped. And I'm not too big a fan of a heavy e-bike - a full sus bike isn't going to be light. If it is designed for mountain bike riding, the tires and the gearing will be wrong (but realistically you can change the tires, and if you are not going over 25mph, the gearing proabaly isn't gonna be an issue).

DukeO

I started with this setup and then put moto X tires on it and changed the stem to a taller one so I could straighten my back out. Has a bafang ultra max that could do 38mph on the flat in PAS. There is no speed limit for PAS in Texas. I mainly cruse at 20 to 25mph. But if I came to a big hill or a big headwind or wanted to ride with faster riders it is nice to have 160nm of power. My back feels great when I get off it. I never want another bike of any king that is not full suspension.

chas58

Beautiful, I love it. Adjustable stems are a wonderful thing.
But, just like growing and smoking a joint, it may be "legal" in your state, but that does not make it legal federally. Don't let the FBI catch you.
JK - enjoy!

DukeO

There is no US or Texas speed limit on PAS. Just 20mph motor only and not over 750w.

( b) DefinitionFor the purpose of this section, the term “low-speed electric bicycle” means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.)

2old

The "Class" rules for about half of the states including CA where I reside define the limits. Basically, 750w max and speed limit of 20 mph on bike paths with PAS or throttle, 28 mph on a lane contiguous with a road and the vehicle is considered a bicycle (doesn't need a license or registration); any more speed or power and it's a moped or motorcycle.

chas58

My point exactly.

38mph is just under 2000 watts. 2000w >750w.

Besides, Last I heard, Texas was one of the 26 states on board with the California definition:

Yeah, you probably are not gonna get a ticket (unless you run into federal traffic cop, lol). Still, insurance and liability lawsuits are not gonna be your friend if something goes wrong.

Moisture

I wouldn't suggest a mountain bike for commuting because those bikes tend to have a pretty long reach which causes you to lean forward. It's not necessary for your needs.

chas58

That is a good point. But the MTB category is so splintered, you can find what you want. Personally, I love '90s mountain bikes for road riding as they had geometry much more similar to a road bike. But the more modern long/low/slack does give good stability at speed.

2old

Nice thing about a mountain bike (almost any bike) is it can be configured as you like with a combination of stem, seatpost and bars. My "road" bike is a steel 90's mountain bike set up perfectly for me. Efficiency isn't important since the motor neutralizes any losses.

Moisture

true. Vintage mtbs were just a longer reach and higher BB, but the design stayed quite similar until the arrival of these crazy new singletrack bikes.

Personally, I dread the long reach, even when using a short stem. A jacked up stack won't do it for me either.

SoundWaves

Hey there! There isn't anything inherently wrong with long commutes on a mountain bike, however full suspension bikes have a lot of power transfer loss, combined with bigger tires with meaner treads means your energy output will be a lot more than say someone on a road bike with skinny tires with little to no tread.

I have rode almost everything under the sun and my favorite bike ever was a $400 road bike fixed gear. It took a little bit to start but once you got going you fly, I was keeping up with cars on the road at some points, you also coast forever. So you get to enjoy extended periods of rest while still going quite fast.

I honestly wouldn't put the money into a full suspension unless you plan on going on black diamond rated trails. I currently own a hard tail mountain bike and it feels like I'm pedaling in mud compared to my road bike.

Just some food for thought, hope it helps.

DukeO

(38mph is just under 2000 watts. 2000w >750w) Sorry but that is not how it works. 48v x 25amp controller = 1200w peak and Bafang has set it as a 750w continuous use motor and that is what matters in the US.

(Besides, Last I heard, Texas was one of the 26 states on board with the California definition You heard wrong. It may in the future. But that is not the law now in Texas and a lot of Texas law makers do not like following what California does.

chas58

Sorry, don't mean to offend. JK means "joking." We are friends here. You've got a nice bike man, like I said.

Anyway, I've seen doco on the Texas law matching the original California standard (based off the European standard). If you have something more up to date, please do share the link with us. Obviously, anything doing 38mph on the flats isn't an e-bike, its a motorized vehicle (and is way way over 750 watts*) - but I know Texas and I ain't gonna mess with Texas.


*Specifically, to get near 35mph, you need the 52v 30 amp kit, which is rated off road only, and double 750 watt limit.

DukeO

The Texas ebike law.
(Sec. 541.201. Vehicles. In this subtitle: ... (2) "Bicycle" means a device that a person may ride and that is propelled by human power and has two tandem wheels at least one of which is more than 14 inches in diameter. The following definition of electric bicycle was passed by the Texas legislature in 2001: (10) "Motor-driven cycle" means a motorcycle equipped with a motor that has an engine piston displacement of 250 cubic centimeters or less. The term does not include an electric bicycle.

(11) "Motor vehicle" means a self-propelled vehicle or a vehicle that is propelled by electric power from overhead trolley wires. The term does not include an electric bicycle.

(24) "Electric bicycle" means a bicycle that:
(A) is designed to be propelled by an electric motor, exclusively or in combination with the application of human power;(B) cannot attain a speed of more than 20 miles per hour without the application of human power; and

(C) does not exceed a weight of 100 pounds.)

(1200w does not make 38mph) What can I say. I have a nine speed with a mid-drive Bafang Ultra Max 750w/ 1200w peak mid-drive and I can get up to 38mph on the flat.

Here is a video of someone doing 40mph with the same motor. He is running 52v 1500w peak with a one speed.

chas58

Fun video, thanks! Massive chain ring. 62lbs, 1500 watt, 40mph. Sounds like a lot of fun. But hats off to ANYONE that can pedal a 62lb bike with 60x17 gearing at 20+mph. That is a strong rider! He's doing over 400 watts himself to do that. (so yeah, 1500 watt motor + 400 watt legs = 38-40mph).

But certainly, 1500watts bafang bbshd can go 35mph, no problem (in “ludicrous” “off road only” mode 52v & 30a).*

FYI, when people in the US talk about laws, this is the basis:
Reference: https://www.ncsl.org/research/transp...rimer.aspx#map


*“Regarding the BBSHD and Legal Street Use: Our drives come programmed for 750w. You can choose to have us program it with our hot rod settings if its for off road use on private property such as for a hunting vehicle or pit bike. This drive is capable of 1500 watts in the right power settings.”