awac

Mixed feelings as well. As I have said I like the Islandix idea, and want it, but it does trouble me that electronics might be doing more than me. I think that the human race is coming to a point where it has to decide which direction it wants to go. Do we keep developing ourselves or allow non-human intervention? Mind you when you look at the state we are making of the earth and environment that’s not an easy answer! I do like to challenge my own senses and believe in crafts, but then others have to value that as well and not just want at the cheapest cost no matter what the damage to planet and the workers producing it.

smd4

I love threads that start out with, “I want to buy a really good…” and basically end with, “but I don’t want to spend the money to buy a really good…”

mpetry912 

remember a tool like the spokeservice truing system are aimed less at the high end hobbyist than the huge bike factories in Taiwan and China.

automated wheel building offers significant savings in terms of wheels built per labor hour.

the high end home hobbyist is very much a niche market.

wheelsmith used robotic wheel building systems to "rough true" their wheels.

Holland Mechanics is the industry leader in this realm Bicycle wheel - Holland Mechanics

/markp

Harold74

If you're a podcaster, you might enjoy this: https://www.econtalk.org/rebecca-str...hands-of-time/

It's book interview with one of the few remaining watch restorers in the UK. Entirely by coincidence, I listened to it on yesterday's bike ride.

Velo Mule

You don't need a great truing stand to build good wheels. And you certainly don't need a great stand to true a wheel that is just out of true. Many people have built wheels using the bike frame as their stand. Me included. I built my first two pairs of wheels this way. When I worked in a bike shop, we had a Schwinn/Park TS-2 truing stand. It wasn't centered any more since someone dropped it resulting in an offset. It wasn't a big deal for us, we either flipped the wheel or used a dishing tool to center the wheel. I use a Minora truing stand now. It is not as stiff as a Park, but in folds up smaller and works for my once every two year pair of wheels that I build. Truing a already built wheel usually gets done n the bike.

Don't kid yourself that getting a more expensive tool will make you a better wheel builder. Especially for someone with less experience. If you have the money and space,get a Park or Unior. If not get something else and lean on that.

By the way, I like Roger Musson's design truing stand. It, or one of its variants, will probably be my next stand. You don't need to see the whole video. He shows the stand and the dishing gauge within the first few minutes. You can see that it is a sturdy stand.

BikePower

because a lot of times you are paying much more for the brand. Meanwhile there are other lesser known brands that make incredible products also but cant charge as much because they dont have brand recognition. its basic economics. So it pays to ask around.

BikePower

sounds to me your skill and determination have more to do with it than the cost of the stand. I mean otherwise why stop at the $400 park stand, go for the $1500 one or the $3000 one mentioned below.

mpetry912 

Not sure about hammers but particularly on vintage rims there is a role for a wood block (actually 3) to gently bend the rims into shape.

Superchamps have a notoriously sloppy rim joint that makes a "bump" under braking. the block lets the builder straighten the mismatch at the joint.

/markp

Calsun

So long as the stand can be clamped down and has adjustable rods to align the rim there is no need to spend $400. Also helps to have a tool to check the amount of dish for the wheel.

https://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-Por...Y4Y?th=1&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/BikeMaster-Wh...49419660&psc=1

Bikemaster sells on Amazon for $112.71 with free shipping

Mad Honk 

I guess I am in the ball park that Andy is in and it is not inexpensive. I own the latest model of the VAR tool and it works quite well but is not cheap to buy or in quality. For around $1k it can be had but it is not for the timid builder or one who searches less than professional quality tools. I know, and "get" that there are plenty of tools that will work well and give good results. They do not need to be costly, but efficient. My experience is with quality tools they cost more up front but pay for themselves in the long run. But every mechanic needs to walk before running. So building up a great set of tools can be had over time. If you can afford $100 buy that tool and use it till you need to upgrade. Smiles, MH

fishboat

Amen. I built one of Roger's stands and dishing tool for about $15. Perfectly good setup to build nice wheels.





The tool, even pricey ones, doesn't build, dish, and true the wheel for you. You still need to understand and go through the same process. If you understood this, you'd know an expensive tool isn't needed to get you there. A pricey stand and the one shown above will get you to the same wheel.

If all or part of your income is derived from building wheels..then step into whatever tool your experience tells you is necessary.

spclark 

Haven't been looking in here long yet this interview is the first place I've seen any mention of tie & soldering spokes.

Back in the mid-'70's a friend (who's built many, many wheels in his lifetime) recommended doing this so I did it to the wheels that came on that Motobecane Grand Record I'm riding still. To my knowledge they've never been on a truing stand. When I spin 'em on the bike I can see a teensy bit of radial runout (how much is too much?) but virtually none axially using the brake pads and stays as indicators.

I don't ride much now (strictly recreational, shortish distances) but back then we were doing velodrome stuff & longish rides.

I don't see it done hardly ever on other bikes I've looked closely at over the years but with changes in metal technology since then I'd have to think it's mostly because of the better metals and ways for fabricating parts besides the obvious that it makes truing harder once a wheel's been ridden on. Maybe more common on track bikes than for the road too.

smd4

Then why are you even asking? As noted above, you can do the work while the wheel is in your bike. You can also mow your lawn with a scissors.

The simple fact is the right tool will make any job easier. The Park has a great reputation for a reason. And they charge accordingly.

mpetry912 

What tie and soldering does is make the hub flange effectively larger, and distributes the loads over more spokes.

Back in the day wnen rims were soft and weighed. 300-400g this was a helpful tweak.

Probably not necessary with modern rims and spokes which (as Spence says in the article) are so much better than the old stuff.

Spence used a home-made truing stand made of angle iron on a steel plate. It was adjustable in axle width and wheel diameter. Primitive by today's standards.

My yellow Cinelli has wheels built for me by Spence - Campy hi flange, DT MA2 rims and of course Tied and Soldered. They ride pretty harsh I would say.

/markp

squirtdad

In my experience as a cheapskate try to be frugal person that has rarely been the case. I have learned over the years that buying quality up front saves a ton of money long term in everything from tools, work stands to bike clothing

Shopping sales and closeouts helps

awac

Years ago when I was driving a Lorry (I believe that’s a semi in US parlance!) I was sent to the golden wonder crisp factory to pick up crips that had been repackaged for Tesco supermarket in their own brand and delivered to the supermarket. They had both crisps on the shelf but the Tesco brand was being sold at about 30% cheaper. It is an old trick, you own two brands and pitch at different market levels, you cast a wide net and catch many.

When you get to tools my experience has taught me a different lesson. It is hard to cheapen a good product and retain the profit margin that the boss and shareholder want to see. Good metal is more expensive, and you can’t always see that, only using it does it become apparent. Research and Design has a huge cost, this is why companies like Park are always copied.

A different packet and brand name does not cost so much to run off, so for crisps, and such like in the supermarket I buy a cheap one and an expensive one and try them (I also look at the ingredients, but that is a discussion for a different thread!) and make my own choice. I do admit I try this with rims!

You then run into aftermarket care. This is where the real value comes in. I hate the waste the human race is wrecking the planet with. I try to buy once, and I expect spares to be available, with a reasonable warranty. The upshot? Yes, look around but consider all the angles, once you do this, Park tools is good value really. A brand that comes from a reputation of use, is the one to value. Ciao.

Trakhak

The late Jobst Brandt performed an experiment that demonstrated the uselessness of tying and soldering, at least for high-quality wheel components.

spclark 

Thanks for posting that link.

I'm inclined to agree with Brandt's conclusion, as much for the results of the static testing he undertook as for developments in bicycle component engineering between early '70's and when he did his testing a quarter century later. Since then component designs have been refined further yet along with refinements in methodologies for their use, all to our benefit.

himespau 

My Minoura FT-1 touring stand is very similar and I always wish I'd bought something more heavy duty. It's kind of finicky to set up just so. I have 3 wheelsets to build up as my next set of projects and I keep putting it off.

pdlamb

I have what I think is a Performance-branded Minoura, a bit older than yours. For my usage, it's fine; check truing once or twice a year, replace a rim every two or three years, built a couple wheels 10 years back...

Would I like a better stand? Well, duh, sure! Is it worth the price to me? Well, no, not really. TBH, it'd be conspicuous consumption. OTOH, if I went into business building or fixing wheels, the cost of a good stand would be an investment in my own productivity, and well worth the price.

tFUnK

Hehe, accurate.
Years ago, I wanted to build some wheels and looked into the Park Tools TS2. A used one at the time could be had for around $200. Almost pulled the trigger but eventually settled for a Minoura stand just like the ones shared in this thread. Worked fine, but having used the Park Tools TS2 stands at various bike co-ops before, I knew what I was missing.

But perhaps more important is the stand/mount. I was living in a small apartment with limited work area and I basically had to put the stand on the ground to work on my wheels. I don't think the TS2 would have worked better in those conditions. I think if I had a proper work bench even the cheap Minoura would have been better to work with. Obviously if you can clamp the stand to the bench that would be ideal, but if you cannot then maybe you won't feel the full benefit of having a nicer stand. The Minoura stand I have doesn't look like it was meant to be clamped to a bench surface.

Anyway, 9 years later I've built 3 sets of wheels and trued maybe a half dozen individual wheels. The Minoura sits in storage in my garage except for the rare occasion. I have since moved into a bigger place but I still don't have a proper work bench (or dedicated working area, period). I guess count me as someone who doesn't regret not getting the TS2.

Paul_P

Now that I'm in an appartment, I clamp my truing stand to my kitchen table with a couple of C-clamps (taking care to protect the table).

The Minoura can be screwed to a board and then clamp that to the table.

Kontact 

Like Andy, I would rather just build the wheels in the bike than use a stand that isn't highly rigid like the good park.

Your eyes are much better gauges than gauges.

Spend money on a good dishing tool, if you don't want to flip the wheels.

mpetry912 

that was a good link. thanks. I knew Jobst slightly. he had a cool shop at HP labs. He was a smart guy, but god help you if he thought you were dumb or you rubbed him the wrong way ! His house on Hawthorne St in Palo Alto was an unbelievable mess. But the worst part about Jobst was that he was a scientific logical positivist. This term describes a mode of reasoning. In this case:: If you could not measure it or quantify it, then it did not exist. A classical german engineer. Such people have significant cognitive blind spots.

So even though you may not be able to "measure" any difference in a tied and soldered wheel when using deflection guages to measure stiffness against forces applied, they do "feel different". It is like the difference between a "real" Stradivarius and just another violin made in Cremona (Italy). There is something that is beyond the reach of first order measurement. The rider (or musician) can perceive it but it is damn near impossible to quantify. Something like the musical phenomenon described as "attack".

I respect Jobst, but I do not regard his work as gospel. He had significant blind spots and predjudices. I knew the guy, rode with him a few times.

just my opinion

/markp

Trakhak

Phenomena that are "damn near impossible to quantify" are what keep manufacturers of audiophile components (for example) in business. Confirmation bias!

On a bass guitar forum I frequent, a noted designer of high-end bass amplifiers once mentioned that his first job out of college was working for a high-end stereo retailer. After he'd been there for a year or so, he was assigned the task of setting up a comparison of several stereo amplifiers for a roomful of writers who worked for audiophile magazines.

So he set up the amplifiers with a switcher designed to enable instant comparisons between the units. On the day, he told the writers which amplifier they were listening to and the price of each and asked for opinions. The most expensive amplifier elicited the standard praise - "burnished highs," "airy, three-dimensional sound stage," etc., etc. The less expensive amplifiers got proportionally less flowery assessments.

It was only afterward that he revealed to the writers that the wires running from the switcher to the table holding the amplifiers weren't connected to anything. The same amplifier had been used throughout the demonstration. They weren't happy to hear that.

Fortunately, he'd been careful to line up a new job ahead of time.

Another example: double-blind testing performed with professional violinists has recently demonstrated that (a) the professional violinists, including those playing the violins and those listening, were unable to identify which violins were Stradivari and other multi-million-dollar originals and which were built in recent decades and that (b) some of the recently built violins were assessed as sounding better than the original ones.