rubiksoval

I think this is something that gets very overblown and taken out of context.

Wheel overlap is inevitable. Doesn't matter if it's 150 riders or 2 riders. I probably spend half my time in a larger group with overlapped wheels.

The issue comes when riders overlapping wheels either don't leave themselves room/an out, or they don't pay close enough attention to the rider and road ahead. If you're overlapping wheels for a long amount of time and have another rider 2 inches from your handlebars on the other side, then you really have nowhere to go should something happen. But if you're overlapping wheels with room to move on the other side, you're fine.

Overlapping wheels isn't something to avoid outright, it's something to be aware of when it happens and leave yourself room to maneuver.

The better group riding skill to have is to always be looking to the riders and the road ahead and leave yourself outs. Anticipate and react.

rubiksoval

Oh, and being able to scrub speed without braking! Massively important skill for smooth group riding.

kosmo886

Totally agree. I wasn’t sure how much I was going to like road biking given the (in my view) uncomfortable riding position and likelihood of getting run over by a car. I got a gravel bike for maximum versatility and comfort and using two wheel sets. Love it. Can be as upright as I want with a nice short reach or as aero as I need to be in the drops. Just got ride 3 in. 27 miles nice and early before traffic. I still love my indoor Peloton rides, but really happy with the decision to hit the real road! And I have a new appreciation for inclines...even the hardly noticeable ones (when you aren’t on a bike that is).

genejockey 

Yeah, these skills take time and practice to acquire, and a fast group ride will assume you already have them. Hey, isn't there a whole thread on this? "We'll Yell At You"?

colnago62

As I said, sometimes it can’t be helped, just like driving too close to the car in front of you. The problem is when it becomes the default position. It really is a less effective place to ride in a lot of cases because your taking on more wind than needed and as with most less ideal situations, eventually you lose concentration at the wrong moment and down you go. Overlap happens, as I said.

gregf83 

Unless there's a strong crosswind in which case you want to be heavily overlapped. Earlier this year while on a solo ride a team came by and invited me into their rotation. It was a fast paced ride and when riding with the wind from the side we were echeloned across the road. Definitely have to pay close attention though with a few 'ripples' occurring in the group.

rubiksoval

There is no default position. You draft, you overlap to slow, then you draft again. It happens constantly. It's not a less than ideal situation. It's simply another situation that one needs to be cognizant and capable of handling.

The "don't overlap" thing causes people to needlessly brake repeatedly which causes the people behind them to brake which opens up gaps, etc. It's the opposite of what's needed for smooth group riding.

colnago62

I don’t disagree, which is why I wrote it is a problem when it becomes the default position. A good time to overlap is when there is a change in the pace Instead of braking.

colnago62

I am referring to wheel overlap. In a side wind, I am riding the hip. In an Echelon, hopefully everybody understands rider position and how the rotation works.

gregf83 

The most effective position is a function of the apparent wind angle. Directly behind in a straight headwind to on the hip in a strong crosswind. In between there is often overlap.

colnago62

I try to avoid that position. You are free to do what you feel is best.

Doge

So simple, yet so hard to ignore all those electronics.
We have all those electronics and when it comes time to prepare - it is all the watch on a known course.

On topic - junior (21 year old been cycling since 8) can hold a bit over 30, on the TT bike and around 28 on road bike for 20-30min.
Here are some of the faster USA solo times https://www.strava.com/segments/3438723

tigat

Also on topic: A 55 yr. old buddy of mine with no significant cardio background - played a lot of squash and did gym stuff but was never a runner or the like - started riding two months ago. He's been riding with me two or three times a week, and getting stronger by the day.

This morning, we rode 46 relatively flat miles at an average of 18.2 mph. He has not mastered or even tried the art of drafting, so I would call it a solo effort. I'd say he has a year or more before the upside is reached, and its going to be in the low 20s.

At 64, I'm just hoping I'll be able to keep up when that happens.

Rvair

I have ignored speed, as conditions are always changing. I focus on my critical power curve. At 63 and 190 lb,, while my FTP is 260W and my max is 1600W, I have found some flat spots in between that needed work. My events on the track last a max of 37 seconds ( 500M TT). My 20 second power is 950W, but as I get to 60 second power, I drop off too far at 560W. so I have been focusing on Tabata intervals to bring that up to over 600W, and it has helped my 500M finish immensely. I am now a slave to the power meter! It is really hard to do Tabatas well without a power meter. Speed and heart rate don't hack it. I try to average 500W for each Tabata effort. Interesting that each set of 8 Tabata intervals declines by about 10 W. By the 4th set of 8, I am only able to manage 460W. This has also helped my recovery more than other intervals. Still, nothing seems to beat a good points race for working on recovery. I have never seen a bike racer look at their speedometer in anything but a 40K TT, but many use power meters to judge their breakaway efforts, so they don't get fooled by adrenaline and blow up.

Doge

I don't know you size, or missed that post. I did 265 @ the hub (pedal/crank PM may measure 5-10W more) today to see what speed it would get me. 21-22mph. I know you had lights. I'm 200+ # and hairy legs, good posture hands on hoods.

I'd guess you could pick up 1-2 mph just on kit, position/fit at the same power. Of course the bike does not matter a whole bunch, but it does matter. In fit first, but also at 20+ the frame and wheels.

Doge

Depends on the goal. Is it speed (what the OP asked about), or is it power, or is it seeing the landscape. As my kid was always about speed, we didn't use the PM much, as his goal was to get faster.

Doge

The is very high peak power, esp at 63 190 lb.
This morning I changed the Garmin to show power (I normally do not even look). I was curious what speed I'd hold on a flat (no noticeable wind help) section @265 W like the OP. Funny I can be very close guessing my kid, but little idea about me. I saw 21 mph and could vary from 20-22 on the same 265W by position. I found with my son we'd see 3-4 mph different at same power. I find holding power and adjusting things to see the speed increases more interesting than trying to achieve a power. Strava KOMs that show power show that it is often not W/Kg that do the best on other than hills.

the sci guy 

jeez. i'm a daily commuter and weekend road rider, and my avg still only hits around 15-16 on a good day. but i'm a small guy with small legs? i dunno. I don't know how some of y'all get up so fast. i physically can't do it.

Paul Barnard

Are you notching that kind of average on 700x40 tires?

kosmo886

No. Those do roll pretty nicely though. I put on a set of 32mm GP5000 tubeless.

dkatz1

I'm a lot slower than that, and I've been riding a long time. Of course, i'm ancient and damaged in various ways.

genejockey 

Part of it's like qualifying for the Olympics - you have to choose your grandparents carefully.

rubiksoval

Years/decades of training and tens/hundreds of thousands of miles.

jblackmd

Hey, great post! Now I'm totally self-conscious about my pace. I was happy with 15... until now. Everything is flat where I live. No blazing fast downhills, no significant climbs. Oh well.

tomato coupe

Switch your bike computer to km/hr -- you'll feel better instantly.