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How much do you care about bike weight?

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

How much do you care about bike weight?

Old 09-21-20, 01:32 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I'm not claiming the latter, just that aside from racing or following specific training regimens.. iow, just grabbing a bike and going out on a course, dragging the heavier bike thru that course is likely more effort. Take your example of that solo ride you chose to do.. comfort aside, if instead you had grabbed your lighter bike, and (if you're familiar with Strava?), would you expect to have seen a lower, same, or higher resulting "Relative Effort" score versus having chosen your heavier bike?
You keep going back to this and then ignoring explanations as to why it's not really the case. Why is that?
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Old 09-21-20, 02:00 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
You keep going back to this and then ignoring explanations as to why it's not really the case. Why is that?
Your only explanation tried to bring in some variable about how people's efforts vary on different days, or how intensity varies by the distance someone rides. That's a given but it's not what's being discussed. Take the example in front of you and answer the question.. if Riveting had grabbed his lighter bike instead on that day and done that solo ride he referenced, are you saying it would have been the exact same effort? It's a yes/no question.
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Old 09-21-20, 02:15 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Your only explanation tried to bring in some variable about how people's efforts vary on different days, or how intensity varies by the distance someone rides. That's a given but it's not what's being discussed. Take the example in front of you and answer the question.. if Riveting had grabbed his lighter bike instead on that day and done that solo ride he referenced, are you saying it would have been the exact same effort? It's a yes/no question.
You might as well give up

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Old 09-21-20, 02:15 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I'm not claiming the latter, just that aside from racing or following specific training regimens.. iow, just grabbing a bike and going out on a course, dragging the heavier bike thru that course is likely more effort. Take your example of that solo ride you chose to do.. comfort aside, if instead you had grabbed your lighter bike, and (if you're familiar with Strava?), would you expect to have seen a lower, same, or higher resulting "Relative Effort" score versus having chosen your heavier bike?
I've tracked every ride I've done since 2013, in Strava, though I've never compared the Relative Effort of the same ride/route on two differently weighted bikes, at the same output level.

Assuming my power output to the top of a mountain is equal on any bike I ride (and why wouldn't it be?), I would assume that the lighter bike would make the ride up a little bit faster and therefore shorter in duration, making the Relative Effort less on a lighter bike. Which adds to the hypothesis that lighter bikes are for those that want less of a workout, and/or want to ride less? Yes, that's sarcastic trolling.

Last edited by Riveting; 09-21-20 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 09-21-20, 02:27 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by Riveting
Assuming my power output to the top of a mountain is equal on any bike I ride (and why wouldn't it be?)
Why wouldn't it be? Because the highest average power that can be maintained is a function of time, decreasing as the duration of the effort gets longer. So a faster bike would allow a higher average power.
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Old 09-21-20, 02:42 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Your only explanation tried to bring in some variable about how people's efforts vary on different days, or how intensity varies by the distance someone rides. That's a given but it's not what's being discussed.
Then you don't know what's being discussed.

Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Take the example in front of you and answer the question.. if Riveting had grabbed his lighter bike instead on that day and done that solo ride he referenced, are you saying it would have been the exact same effort? It's a yes/no question.
It's not a yes/no question - it's a matter or putting in what you want to put in or are capable of putting in. If I'm absolutely gassed when I get to the top of a hill on a 17lb bike, putting in the same power on a 20lb bike is going to leave me short of the summit... so what happens in that moment? Do I bang my head against that wall and fall over? Do I magically tap in to energy reserves that I didn't know I had and power on? Or does my predicament dawn on me before that, at which point I lower my effort so that I can still limp to the top?
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Old 09-21-20, 02:43 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
Why wouldn't it be? Because the highest average power that can be maintained is a function of time, decreasing as the duration of the effort gets longer. So a faster bike would allow a higher average power.
Good point. So if the lighter bike allows for a better avg power, and the heavier bike causes a longer ride and therefore a lower avg power due to fatigue, which bike would burn more calories overall, for the same climb? Is it the shorter ride with slightly higher avg power, or the longer ride with slightly lower avg power?
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Old 09-21-20, 02:48 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Riveting
Is it the shorter ride with slightly higher avg power, or the longer ride with slightly lower avg power?
That was all wrong. The simple answer is the faster rider will always burn more calories. They both do the same amount of work against gravity and rolling resistance, but the power to overcome aero drag goes up as the cube of the speed while the time goes down linearly with speed. That means that increasing speed always increases the work to overcome drag.


If you're trolling, it's pretty weak. If you're serious, clearly it depends on the length of the climb and the individual's power/duration curve.

Clarification - the difference will depend on the P/D curve. The faster ride will always burn more calories.

Last edited by asgelle; 09-21-20 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 09-21-20, 02:49 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Your only explanation tried to bring in some variable about how people's efforts vary on different days, or how intensity varies by the distance someone rides. That's a given but it's not what's being discussed. Take the example in front of you and answer the question.. if Riveting had grabbed his lighter bike instead on that day and done that solo ride he referenced, are you saying it would have been the exact same effort? It's a yes/no question.
Attempting to force a narrow question (with the knowledge that you'll expand it) is a transparent tactic.
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Old 09-21-20, 03:01 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Then you don't know what's being discussed.



It's not a yes/no question - it's a matter or putting in what you want to put in or are capable of putting in. If I'm absolutely gassed when I get to the top of a hill on a 17lb bike, putting in the same power on a 20lb bike is going to leave me short of the summit... so what happens in that moment? Do I bang my head against that wall and fall over? Do I magically tap in to energy reserves that I didn't know I had and power on? Or does my predicament dawn on me before that, at which point I lower my effort so that I can still limp to the top?
It is a yes/no, as we're supposing Riveting was in the same frame of mind before the ride he rode -- pretend he was blindfolded and chose the bike. So your argument is that road cyclists everywhere, grab a bike to go out on their ride, and their intent is to finish at a level of complete exhaustion or comatose? Strava's proxy for effort is a combo of heart rate and time spent at those heart rates. If a rider's endurance zone HR is eg. 160 and they run that for 2 hours on a light bike, but the same course takes them 2 hours and 5 minutes on a heavier bike to complete, which was the better workout?

I really don't understand why the such absolute "you're wrong" take on this whole thing.
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Old 09-21-20, 03:09 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
It is a yes/no, as we're supposing Riveting was in the same frame of mind before the ride he rode -- pretend he was blindfolded and chose the bike. So your argument is that road cyclists everywhere, grab a bike to go out on their ride, and their intent is to finish at a level of complete exhaustion or comatose? Strava's proxy for effort is a combo of heart rate and time spent at those heart rates. If a rider's endurance zone HR is eg. 160 and they run that for 2 hours on a light bike, but the same course takes them 2 hours and 5 minutes on a heavier bike to complete, which was the better workout?

I really don't understand why the such absolute "you're wrong" take on this whole thing.
You're presenting false antecedents and expecting us to accept the conclusions therefrom.
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Old 09-21-20, 03:14 PM
  #112  
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I'm a casaul/fitness rider. Last year I took a bike to Burning Man, and brought home 10 more. One was a 1990 Diamond Back, chromo dubble butted frame. I also volunteer at a Bicycle Kitchen and so have access to lots of old parts. So I completely rebuilt the thing, taking special interest in light weight stuff. I even took parts to my drill press (Seat clamp, quick releases, etc... I got it down to 26lbs and was quite proud of myself. But then it absolutely killed me to add a cable lock, pump, and seat pack tool kit. So was it a waste of time? In one sense it was. It was a fun project and still makes me feel good to show it off and ride it.
So if you have the money, and a lighter bike makes you feel good, I say go for it.
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Old 09-21-20, 03:20 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
You're presenting false antecedents and expecting us to accept the conclusions therefrom.
No, you're wrong. I'm just supposing, that unlike yourself, some riders' goals when they go for a ride are different than yours -- which apparently is to have the highest Total Suffer Score in a specific amount of allotted time.

Let's try a new topic. 2 bikes that weigh the same, one with flat tires, one with air in them. Which will provide a better workout over a 50 mile course?
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Old 09-21-20, 03:33 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
It is a yes/no, as we're supposing Riveting was in the same frame of mind before the ride he rode -- pretend he was blindfolded and chose the bike. So your argument is that road cyclists everywhere, grab a bike to go out on their ride, and their intent is to finish at a level of complete exhaustion or comatose?
No, but you didn't seem to understand the more nuanced approach previously.

Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Strava's proxy for effort is a combo of heart rate and time spent at those heart rates. If a rider's endurance zone HR is eg. 160 and they run that for 2 hours on a light bike, but the same course takes them 2 hours and 5 minutes on a heavier bike to complete, which was the better workout?
And this is where the disconnect is. The contention that being discussed is "you get a better workout with a heavier bike." If you're riding a 20lb bike and you want a better workout, you simply. go. faster. If you're riding a 17lb bike and you want a better workout, you simply. go. faster. The difference in energy required for the 3lb swing in bike weight will quickly and easily be swallowed by wind resistance.
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Old 09-21-20, 03:38 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
No, but you didn't seem to understand the more nuanced approach previously.



And this is where the disconnect is. The contention that being discussed is "you get a better workout with a heavier bike." If you're riding a 20lb bike and you want a better workout, you simply. go. faster. If you're riding a 17lb bike and you want a better workout, you simply. go. faster. The difference in energy required for the 3lb swing in bike weight will quickly and easily be swallowed by wind resistance.
Ahh.. so that's the disconnect.. I'm using the term "workout" generically/colloquially. As in any ride is some sort of a workout since by default you're getting some exercise. And you're coming from standpoint of a workout implying that there be a specific desired goal or set of goals.
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Old 09-21-20, 03:52 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
No, you're wrong. I'm just supposing, that unlike yourself, some riders' goals when they go for a ride are different than yours -- which apparently is to have the highest Total Suffer Score in a specific amount of allotted time.

Let's try a new topic. 2 bikes that weigh the same, one with flat tires, one with air in them. Which will provide a better workout over a 50 mile course?
No, you're wrong. I'm just supposing, that unlike yourself, some riders' goals when they go for a ride are different than yours - which apparently is to have the highest Total Suffer Score in a specific distance.

Let's try a new topic: 2 bikes that weigh five pounds different. Which will provide a better workout over a two hour session?
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Old 09-21-20, 03:58 PM
  #117  
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You dont want to be too lite. I heard below 16 lbs and you start floating into the air, hence why the TdF limits the weight of your bike to that.
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Old 09-21-20, 04:30 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Ahh.. so that's the disconnect.. I'm using the term "workout" generically/colloquially. As in any ride is some sort of a workout since by default you're getting some exercise. And you're coming from standpoint of a workout implying that there be a specific desired goal or set of goals.
I'm not looking for anything more specific than better/worse, and I don't know of any definitions of "workout," where there'd be a difference in that regard, unless by "generically/colloquially" you mean, "oh, I hadn't thought this through fully."
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Old 09-21-20, 04:33 PM
  #119  
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[QUOTE=Bah Humbug;21706199]No, you're wrong. I'm just supposing, that unlike yourself, some riders' goals when they go for a ride are different than yours -/QUOTE]
Good.. so we agree.. there aren't any absolutes.. and to tell everybody that they're "wrong" is just flat-out wrong.
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Old 09-21-20, 04:37 PM
  #120  
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I'll do a reductio. In 2016 my wife and I rode a 154 mile 9500' course in 11:30. on our tandem. The next year, I rode the same course on my single in 9:47. My wife's watts/kilo is a little more than half mine. My hrTSS score was almost the same for both rides.

Why? Because the longer ride sapped my power and thus HR. One only has so many kj to give to the cause or IOW if one is an experienced rider, when one can go faster, one can go harder. Or not of course, but I was riding for time on both rides.

Obviously this relationship would not hold true for shorter rides, where the tandem produces a higher hrTSS for me, about 10 extra hrTSS per 20 miles because it's slower than my single in our local somewhat hilly terrain. On the flat, the two bikes move at about the same speed for the same effort because our lower stoker power is made up for by the increased aero, tandems having about 1.5 X drag of a single bike..Of course on the descents we rule, down on our aero bars. These figures are only approximations, but the idea is solid.
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Old 09-21-20, 04:58 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
No, you're wrong. I'm just supposing, that unlike yourself, some riders' goals when they go for a ride are different than yours
Good.. so we agree.. there aren't any absolutes.. and to tell everybody that they're "wrong" is just flat-out wrong.
Oh there are absolutes. And that last bit is quite ironic.
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Old 09-21-20, 05:08 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
You're free to be as wrong as he is. .
Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
Oh there are absolutes. And that last bit is quite ironic.
Ya think?
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Old 09-21-20, 08:07 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
It is a yes/no, as we're supposing Riveting was in the same frame of mind before the ride he rode -- pretend he was blindfolded and chose the bike. So your argument is that road cyclists everywhere, grab a bike to go out on their ride, and their intent is to finish at a level of complete exhaustion or comatose? Strava's proxy for effort is a combo of heart rate and time spent at those heart rates. If a rider's endurance zone HR is eg. 160 and they run that for 2 hours on a light bike, but the same course takes them 2 hours and 5 minutes on a heavier bike to complete, which was the better workout?

I really don't understand why the such absolute "you're wrong" take on this whole thing.
The real question is which was more enjoyable to ride and at the end of the day my 16lb carbon race bike with 25c tires will be a lot more enjoyable then my 22lb bike even though the heavier bike isn't that much of a slow down. I have a route I like to do, on the race bike it takes 54min for the 20 miles, on the heavier bike it takes 59min, either way I'm at the limits of my ability so maybe getting a little longer of a workout with the heavier bike but it isn't as enjoyable so unless I'm taking the kids and tooling along the route I leave the heavier bike home and enjoy the ride.

Originally Posted by Sy Reene
No, you're wrong. I'm just supposing, that unlike yourself, some riders' goals when they go for a ride are different than yours -- which apparently is to have the highest Total Suffer Score in a specific amount of allotted time.
Let's try a new topic. 2 bikes that weigh the same, one with flat tires, one with air in them. Which will provide a better workout over a 50 mile course?
That's easy, the tires with air will get the better workout since only an idiot would ride 50mi on a flat tire. And from my experience riding 5mi on my third flat in one ride there really wasn't a work out since anything above about 8mph was asking for a crash.
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Old 09-22-20, 10:43 AM
  #124  
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As the original poster has stated both bikes are disc brakes, same components, very close in price they are literally the same. I would do an in store weighing of each bike without pedals. All things being equal I'd probably take the lighter bike.

If you want to make the bike faster, drop 5kgs. To make it even faster drop 10kgs!
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Old 09-22-20, 03:19 PM
  #125  
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How did we decide that burning more calories is what a better workout means?
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