Dutch perspective on cycling in the US
#51
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Wow, doesn't take much to get the A&S squad agitated.
If more people cycled in regular clothes on normal bikes, it would get more people to ride. What's so hard to understand about that? Do you put on the lycra and pull out the carbon road bike to go to the supermarket? Of course not.
I think the video hit the major point: until we get the mindset that bikes are a mode of transportation and not a weekend activity in the park, biking in the U.S. will continue to be (at least perceived as) a dangerous activity.
If more people cycled in regular clothes on normal bikes, it would get more people to ride. What's so hard to understand about that? Do you put on the lycra and pull out the carbon road bike to go to the supermarket? Of course not.
I think the video hit the major point: until we get the mindset that bikes are a mode of transportation and not a weekend activity in the park, biking in the U.S. will continue to be (at least perceived as) a dangerous activity.
Until we adjust public policy to change that, doesn't matter how cycle chic we get here in the US. The car will still be dominant.
One thing the video completely skips out on as a reason for high cycling mode share in euro nations, is the fact that fuel is not subsidized at the same rate it is here. Gasoline is about $7/liter in the Eurozone. Gasoline is $3.80/gallon here in the US. The price differential is due to subsidies for fuel, making it cheaper to drive in the US than in the Eurozone. By a magnitude of 5 (If my off-the-cuff math is correct).
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#52
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The problem is blaming lycra for people not seeing cycling as transportation is misguided at best. One of the root causes is that until quite recently, only the combustion engine was seen fit for transportation in the US, and public policy supported that concept.
Until we adjust public policy to change that, doesn't matter how cycle chic we get here in the US. The car will still be dominant.
One thing the video completely skips out on as a reason for high cycling mode share in euro nations, is the fact that fuel is not subsidized at the same rate it is here. Gasoline is about $7/liter in the Eurozone. Gasoline is $3.80/gallon here in the US. The price differential is due to subsidies for fuel, making it cheaper to drive in the US than in the Eurozone. By a magnitude of 5 (If my off-the-cuff math is correct).
Until we adjust public policy to change that, doesn't matter how cycle chic we get here in the US. The car will still be dominant.
One thing the video completely skips out on as a reason for high cycling mode share in euro nations, is the fact that fuel is not subsidized at the same rate it is here. Gasoline is about $7/liter in the Eurozone. Gasoline is $3.80/gallon here in the US. The price differential is due to subsidies for fuel, making it cheaper to drive in the US than in the Eurozone. By a magnitude of 5 (If my off-the-cuff math is correct).
Frankly I'd love to see the bicycle equivalent of the 1956 Highway act which kicked off the building of the interstate freeway system. Could you imagine if there was a mandate to make bike infrastructure fully connected in cities, to provide a system of high speed bikeways within cities.
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Frankly I'd love to see the bicycle equivalent of the 1956 Highway act which kicked off the building of the interstate freeway system. Could you imagine if there was a mandate to make bike infrastructure fully connected in cities, to provide a system of high speed bikeways within cities.
#54
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So uh, either we need to stop subsidizing gasoline here in the US or should apply equal subsidization to other forms of transportation.
Frankly I'd love to see the bicycle equivalent of the 1956 Highway act which kicked off the building of the interstate freeway system. Could you imagine if there was a mandate to make bike infrastructure fully connected in cities, to provide a system of high speed bikeways within cities.
Frankly I'd love to see the bicycle equivalent of the 1956 Highway act which kicked off the building of the interstate freeway system. Could you imagine if there was a mandate to make bike infrastructure fully connected in cities, to provide a system of high speed bikeways within cities.
In the early 1970's, when I was active in reconstituting a bicycling club that had been dormant for about 50 years (the Narragansett Bay Wheelmen) one of the members uncovered a document that highlighted a provision in the Highway Act that earmarked a very minuscule percentage of the gasoline tax for bicycle paths. This was a move made by Eisenhower out of respect for his cardiologist Dr. Paul Dudley White, a strong advocate of bicycling, who warned that the interstate highway system would lead to obesity and heart disease due to an over dependence on the automobile. We shared the information with LAW (now LAB) with the hope that this unused portion had now accumulated to something substantial that could be used for more infrastructure. I believe LAB attempted to lobby for its use but I think it got mired in politics.
Over the years I've been curious about this provision. If anyone has any info I'd love to see if it was true that such a provision existed. I'll google later and see if I get anything.
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Apparently taking the lane at ~10-15 mph while riding a hybrid or a bike with panniers is "trying to outrun other traffic.
Images of commuters "speed racing" at 10-15 mph.
Again more frightening images of cyclists "speed racing" at 10-15 mph.
I guess in Holland racers ride hybrids and bikes with panniers.
He pans to a group of cyclist cycling at ~5-10 mph on hybrids and bikes with panniers.
And his video of a Chicago cycle track shows two lycra clad road cyclists going 15+.
Pans to cyclist going ~15 mph commuting on fendered hybrid.
Yikes!
I did not realize that I was promoting a bad future for cycling in the USA! I guess I will have to get rid of my sporty clothing and carbon fiber bikes and buy some tight jeans and an opafiets.
What I don't understand is why the video maker is promoting riding a bike that's heavy and slow and panning a bike that's light and easier to push? I have to ride far enough to get to work, why should I make it harder than it already is? Maybe that's it in a nutshell. If you only have to go a few blocks, and have all the time there is to get there, it sure seems nice to mosey your way down the bike path to work. It's just not like that here.
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It's high, but not $7/liter. More like $7/gallon, though higher in places. (Denmark has ~11DKK/liter = ~$2/liter = ~ $8/gallon)
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In the early 1970's, when I was active in reconstituting a bicycling club that had been dormant for about 50 years (the Narragansett Bay Wheelmen) one of the members uncovered a document that highlighted a provision in the Highway Act that earmarked a very minuscule percentage of the gasoline tax for bicycle paths. This was a move made by Eisenhower out of respect for his cardiologist Dr. Paul Dudley White, a strong advocate of bicycling, who warned that the interstate highway system would lead to obesity and heart disease due to an over dependence on the automobile. We shared the information with LAW (now LAB) with the hope that this unused portion had now accumulated to something substantial that could be used for more infrastructure. I believe LAB attempted to lobby for its use but I think it got mired in politics.
Over the years I've been curious about this provision. If anyone has any info I'd love to see if it was true that such a provision existed. I'll google later and see if I get anything.
Over the years I've been curious about this provision. If anyone has any info I'd love to see if it was true that such a provision existed. I'll google later and see if I get anything.
Opps....
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Do you put on the lycra and pull out the carbon road bike to go to the supermarket? Of course not.
I think the video hit the major point: until we get the mindset that bikes are a mode of transportation
and not a weekend activity in the park
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Well, going to work I ride a 'bent in chinos/dress slacks and a collared dress shirt if that helps
A fast, comfortable one.
Even if they are, what does that have to do with here? A short commute in the States is what, 5 miles one way?
So which kind of bike is ideal for transportation in the USA?
The average bike trip distance in Holland is a bit over 1 mile. Somehow I don't think most of these trips are "commutes".
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What are "regular" clothes and "normal" bikes? Also, link please.
I do at least a few times a week. You gotta problem with that?
So which kind of bike is ideal for transportation in the USA? A 50 lb oma/opafiets or a ~25 lb hybrid/cross/tourer?
The average bike trip distance in Holland is a bit over 1 mile. Somehow I don't think most of these trips are "commutes".
I do at least a few times a week. You gotta problem with that?
So which kind of bike is ideal for transportation in the USA? A 50 lb oma/opafiets or a ~25 lb hybrid/cross/tourer?
The average bike trip distance in Holland is a bit over 1 mile. Somehow I don't think most of these trips are "commutes".
1. Traffic
2. Needing to get special equipment
You really put on a roadie outfit to go to the market? That's just...odd.
Which kind of bike is best? One that is reliable, affordable, and practical for commuting and errands. In other words, not a carbon road bike. Sure, you'll always have the Porsche 911s on the road, but most people choose a sedan, hatchback, or SUV for their everyday driving. This probably translates to urban and hybrid bikes.
Distance has nothing to do with it. It's the perception that cycling is something that you do in a park or on a trail for fun instead of as a valid alternative to the automobile. Change that perception and you go a long way to gaining more widespread acceptance of cyclists on the roads.
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You really put on a roadie outfit to go to the market? That's just...odd.
Which kind of bike is best? One that is reliable, affordable, and practical for commuting and errands. In other words, not a carbon road bike. Sure, you'll always have the Porsche 911s on the road, but most people choose a sedan, hatchback, or SUV for their everyday driving. This probably translates to urban and hybrid bikes.
Distance has nothing to do with it. It's the perception that cycling is something that you do in a park or on a trail for fun instead of as a valid alternative to the automobile. Change that perception and you go a long way to gaining more widespread acceptance of cyclists on the roads.
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#63
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One store I do much of my shopping at is 8 miles from home, so if I do the shopping on a non-workday, you bet I put bike shorts on for the 16 mile ride. About half the time, I even use the CF bike. No way I am using a hybrid bike.
Do you believe touring cyclist should have to change clothes to get a few groceries?
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Last edited by CB HI; 07-02-13 at 06:00 PM.
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Really? Wow! I usually don't even take water along for just 16 miles. I certainly wouldn't change out of street clothes for such a short trip. For me, if I'm not going to be riding for more than about two and a half hours, any benefit I get from cycling shorts is outweighed by the inconvenience of having to change out of street clothes. (That time may well increase after I get my Brooks installed and broken in.)
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Which kind of bike is best? One that is reliable, affordable, and practical for commuting and errands. In other words, not a carbon road bike...This probably translates to urban and hybrid bikes.
It's the perception that cycling is something that you do in a park or on a trail for fun instead of as a valid alternative to the automobile.
Some pictures of people who bike on my commuting route:
https://bikeportland.org/2013/01/23/p...s-circle-82171
OMG!!!! "racing" bikes, lycra, day-glo cycling jackets, and helments!!!!!1!!!!!
Distance has nothing to do with it.
Last edited by spare_wheel; 07-02-13 at 04:49 PM.
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I would enjoy seeing you take the 10-12% grade on my commute on that 40 lb opafiets you pine away for.
I prefer to stay hydrated. Your liver may vary.
It takes me ~5 seconds to change into bike shorts.
Really? Wow! I usually don't even take water along for just 16 miles.
any benefit I get from cycling shorts is outweighed by the inconvenience of having to change out of street clothes.
That time may well increase after I get my Brooks installed and broken in.
Last edited by spare_wheel; 07-02-13 at 05:02 PM.
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The clothing thing aways seems to get presented as binary ordinary clothes or full lycra race kit
for me and and I would guess most people the reality is it is or should be a continum of form follows function, based on a combination of factors including purpose of ride, distance, speed weather, personal preffernce among others.
For me this works out kinda like this:
I need to jump on my bike and do a quick errand/utility run. I jump on the bike in what I am wearing, except never sandals for flip flops. The bike: either the torpado city bike conversion or my nishiki utility commuter depending on how much I have to carry.
I want a quick (10 mile or so) bit of exercise, Shorts (non bike specific...usually gramicci) and t shirt, sneakers. The bike: the torpado city bike
Commute to work 5 miles each way. Shorts (non bike specific...usually gramicci) and t shirt. Bike gloves and spd shoes. the bike the utility/commuiter (once in a while the torpado with sneakers...it is just afun ride). but if my commute were longer I would go my miyata road bike and cycle specific gear (bikes shorts (voler if it matters) and bike jersey (polyestra/lyrcra, not team fit....with my companies logo on it), bikes shoes gloves I find 10 miles my personal max in not bike shorts.
for longer than 10 mile rides my miyata road bike and cycle specific gear (bikes shorts (voler if it matters) and bike jersey (polyestra/lyrcra, not team fit....with my companies logo on it), bikes shoes gloves
many places it is too hot and humid to commute by bike in work clothes even for short distances. Sure people have done centurys in Levis but most people would not find that optimum. I don't know of any one who put on kit to go on an errand unless it is combined with a longer ride.
and to help visualize and because we don't post enough bike pic in A & S here are the bikes
torapdo
commuter utility
road
for me and and I would guess most people the reality is it is or should be a continum of form follows function, based on a combination of factors including purpose of ride, distance, speed weather, personal preffernce among others.
For me this works out kinda like this:
I need to jump on my bike and do a quick errand/utility run. I jump on the bike in what I am wearing, except never sandals for flip flops. The bike: either the torpado city bike conversion or my nishiki utility commuter depending on how much I have to carry.
I want a quick (10 mile or so) bit of exercise, Shorts (non bike specific...usually gramicci) and t shirt, sneakers. The bike: the torpado city bike
Commute to work 5 miles each way. Shorts (non bike specific...usually gramicci) and t shirt. Bike gloves and spd shoes. the bike the utility/commuiter (once in a while the torpado with sneakers...it is just afun ride). but if my commute were longer I would go my miyata road bike and cycle specific gear (bikes shorts (voler if it matters) and bike jersey (polyestra/lyrcra, not team fit....with my companies logo on it), bikes shoes gloves I find 10 miles my personal max in not bike shorts.
for longer than 10 mile rides my miyata road bike and cycle specific gear (bikes shorts (voler if it matters) and bike jersey (polyestra/lyrcra, not team fit....with my companies logo on it), bikes shoes gloves
many places it is too hot and humid to commute by bike in work clothes even for short distances. Sure people have done centurys in Levis but most people would not find that optimum. I don't know of any one who put on kit to go on an errand unless it is combined with a longer ride.
and to help visualize and because we don't post enough bike pic in A & S here are the bikes
torapdo
commuter utility
road
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#68
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I prefer to stay hydrated.
It takes me ~5 seconds to change into bike shorts.
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Congratulations. Do your bike shorts have the convenience of a lot of pockets like my street clothes do? I prefer being able to use those pockets. Why would I want to rearrange all my stuff just so I can wear special clothes that won't provide any noticeable benefit until I'm ~150 minutes into my ride when I won't be riding for 150 minutes? It isn't worth the inconvenience for me.
#70
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Really? Wow! I usually don't even take water along for just 16 miles. I certainly wouldn't change out of street clothes for such a short trip. For me, if I'm not going to be riding for more than about two and a half hours, any benefit I get from cycling shorts is outweighed by the inconvenience of having to change out of street clothes. (That time may well increase after I get my Brooks installed and broken in.)
Hydration is a good thing and I never found it that hard to put a water bottle in a cage.
With his claims of such a hard ass, you would think the Brooks would not need to be broken in for him.
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#72
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It's funny how many roadies think it's impossible to climb moderate hills without a lightweight road bike. Such a hill wouldn't be a problem for me. I make steeper climbs than that with my steel singlespeed, which weighs in around 30 pounds. Further, I often have another 25-30 pounds on my back when I commute and when I take my frequent "lunchtime" rides (10-15 miles, usually). Ten more pounds won't make any real difference.
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#73
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I have experienced no inconvenience while shopping in bike clothes. Odd that you find it so inconvenient.
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It's riding a bike, not an extreme sport.
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It's funny how many roadies think it's impossible to climb moderate hills without a lightweight road bike. Such a hill wouldn't be a problem for me. I make steeper climbs than that with my steel singlespeed, which weighs in around 30 pounds. Further, I often have another 25-30 pounds on my back when I commute and when I take my frequent "lunchtime" rides (10-15 miles, usually). Ten more pounds won't make any real difference.
Me too, but for just 16 miles, drinking water before I leave is sufficient.
Congratulations. Do your bike shorts have the convenience of a lot of pockets like my street clothes do? I prefer being able to use those pockets. Why would I want to rearrange all my stuff just so I can wear special clothes that won't provide any noticeable benefit until I'm ~150 minutes into my ride when I won't be riding for 150 minutes? It isn't worth the inconvenience for me.
Me too, but for just 16 miles, drinking water before I leave is sufficient.
Congratulations. Do your bike shorts have the convenience of a lot of pockets like my street clothes do? I prefer being able to use those pockets. Why would I want to rearrange all my stuff just so I can wear special clothes that won't provide any noticeable benefit until I'm ~150 minutes into my ride when I won't be riding for 150 minutes? It isn't worth the inconvenience for me.
I sweat enough to wear paint off the top tube of my bike... So bottom line, what works for you, may not work for others and vice versa. Some of us choose to change clothes because in the end, it IS more comfortable.
When I go to the local grocery just a mile away... I tend to NOT wear bike specific clothing. When I go to the local pub, 3 miles away, I get a bit damp, but still don't change clothes. When I go to work, up and down various hills, and only 7 miles away, I DO change clothes.
But by and large the views of cycling in the US is that it is a sport... and people have a tendency to treat it as a sport and thus wear cycling specific clothing... which others that don't bike, tend to feel is something they do not want to do. This also tends to slant the views of folks from other countries about American cycling.
And again, your mileage may vary.