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Old 03-25-14, 01:01 PM
  #726  
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Originally Posted by jmikami
For the holding your line question ... I think the Pervis Kilo video from worlds this year on you tube is the great example of how to hold your line. And if you notice he tosses his bike a bit as he accelerates as well ... I like that too ... stiff bike is bad for me. His bike touches the red line a few times and the black line more than not, but in general his bike is between the lines, not on the black. He is staying low, but not actively trying to hold his bike on the line and just seems to be worried about going forward more than anything.

To Hermes, the British coaches who had you "practice" on below the black lines is one thing, but I certainly hope they were not advocating that you need to ride that way in competition, even for a pursuit. A lot of coaches scare/ruin riders by having them practice stuff that is good to practice, but it is just that practice to make you better, not something to think about when racing and they forget to tell you that. Once you get into a race you need to be more fluid and use your training to help you, but not run your race as you would a training session. You don't have to try and race perfect like a robot, let the bike go and make it go forward and let your training and practice keep you where you need to be, but never fight the bike. I am not saying you said all this, but I think it is important to differentiate practice from race.
Are you a coach? What have you accomplished? Have you raced internationally?
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Old 03-25-14, 01:09 PM
  #727  
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Originally Posted by Quinn8it
I actually agree with that- generally speaking.

But- on a track like Encino where the curve on shaving 10ths below 12" 200m's gets really really steep- maximizing your line comes into play.
I am not an expert on that track, but did ride it once or twice in the 90s. I would agree that you hit that track high in 3, low between and just hope to not come out of the red during a race, but during a 200 meter I would not worry about it at all out of 4 - come out to the red or beyond and enjoy the throw it gives you. I have seen riders thrown up to the blue band at our track and encino in particular and then trying and ride back to the black before the line. Once you have been tossed out just hold your line and ride straight. Coming back to the black is not going to help.

I do agree that certain tracks take a bit of experience and gaining anything you can from the locals is good. But you still have to know your own style enough to know if the locals advice will work for you and go out and get some extra practice on that track. I do remember hating Encino as a visiting rider because it was hard to come around someone, but I surely did not want to have to stay under the red coming out of corner 4 in the lead because that was hard at speed.
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Old 03-25-14, 01:22 PM
  #728  
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Originally Posted by Hermes
Are you a coach? What have you accomplished? Have you raced internationally?
Take my advice as a seasoned local, but not a coach or pro.

I like staying the big fish in the little pond, works paid too well to ever risk being a pro on the bike. I started racing in the late 80s and have raced on and off since then. Top 5s here and there regionally and nationally - but no wins, mostly a local rider with 100s of wins in my home state on both the road and track, but mostly the track. I use to hold our hour record and likely have more miles at Alpenrose than anyone else in the last 20 years. I coach riders around me that are teammates and friends and often give advice to those who ask, but I am not a paid coach nor do I actively coach. I help out on group rides and use to help at the training sessions at Alpenrose, but most of my experience comes from the late 90s/early 2000s when I raced 100 times a year and learned by making every mistake you can possibly make.

So if it has been done wrong, I have done it ... at least 3 times. I am now a happy fat dad who is trying to get back into racing yet again to show my kids it is good to be active and have fun doing something you enjoy. So I will be coaching them and helping out my teammates and any who ask. I feel it is better to share my failures with others and let them use that to help move them forward. But as with all advice, your mileage may vary. As I tell my kids, we are all a case study of one, so just because it works for me, well you will have to figure it out for yourself.
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Old 03-25-14, 01:49 PM
  #729  
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Originally Posted by Hermes
Are you a coach? What have you accomplished? Have you raced internationally?
Well, he ain't a noob... but he is modest.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
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Old 03-25-14, 02:03 PM
  #730  
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Originally Posted by dro.pru
any recommendations on a stem? currently have a generic 110 mm with 7 degree rise/drop and 26mm handlebar clamping area and 1 1/8 steerer tube. looking for 90mm and 25.4 mm clamping area since i decided to upgrade my handlebars to nitto 123s since the bar that came with the bike are too wide. would going plus or minus a degree based 0n what I can find change things much?
Originally Posted by Quinn8it
If you are riding the Steel Nittos (123 or125) you need to use the Steel Nitto stem as they don't mate with aluminum stems..
If aluminum- I go thomson. 25.4 are usually available on eBay
Actually, the Thompson 25.4 stems don't mate well with the Nitto B123/125 bars. The inside of the faceplate is hollow and is designed to grip on the outer edges of the faceplate. The Nitto bars have a narrow clamp area. So, the overlap of the stem and clamp is only a few millimeters on each side. In short, they don't mate well together.

Here's what can happen.




Photo sources:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/frecklejuice/5603585921/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/frecklejuice/5604170194/

In my opinion, the best solution is to use 25.4 - 31.8mm shims. It's not an elegant solution, but it works, even for very strong standing starts. Also you can use 31.8 stems which are easy to find.

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Old 03-25-14, 02:03 PM
  #731  
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Originally Posted by jmikami
A lot of coaches scare/ruin riders by having them practice stuff that is good to practice, but it is just that practice to make you better, not something to think about when racing and they forget to tell you that.
This is a really good point. I mean, I don't know about what coaches do, but I see a lot of people mistaking things you do in practice for things you do in a race situation. I think just about everybody has that friend who is always always always staring at their power meter, and I've heard some people say "yeah, i got dropped, i was looking at my powermeter and I was at XXX watts and I knew that was all I could do."

And then there's this one:
"So-and-so stopped working in the breakaway, I don't know why!"

Because he was trying to beat you, dummy!
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Old 03-25-14, 02:11 PM
  #732  
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Originally Posted by jmikami
I have seen riders thrown up to the blue band at our track and encino in particular and then trying and ride back to the black before the line. Once you have been tossed out just hold your line and ride straight. Coming back to the black is not going to help.
Masters Nats last year at Indy- I did my first and only Flying 200 on a 333. I didn't get much track time before I rode it, and didn't piece much of a practice effort together before.

At about the middle of turn 3-4 I hit a sponge on the apron. I shot up to the blue line. I quickly made piece with the reality that I was Crashing- and decided that I would at least keep pedaling until the impact. Ended up not over reacting and taking a decent line despite the bad situation.

Qualified 2nd..

I agree Fast trumps Line.. But if you can put them both together that is better.
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Old 03-25-14, 02:13 PM
  #733  
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Riding under the black line is both easy and hard. It really depends on the track.

If there is a smooth transition from the banked track to the flat surface, there isn't much of a "cost" to pay for dipping under. If there is a sharp angle and/or pronounced crack where two pieces of cement meet, then you'll have issues if you drop under.

For example, riding under the black line at Rock Hill is REALLY easy. It's almost like the track was designed to be ridden that way. If you dip too much under, there is a very subtle curved transition to flat that is easy to ride on even in aero bars.

DLV has a sharp, v-shaped wedge where the cote d'azur meets the track. So, if your wheel gets in that wedge, it will be jarring. You won't crash, but it will jerk you around.

Also, some tracks have the cote d'azur ON the banked part of the track. Some have it on the level ground. So, again, it depends.
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Old 03-25-14, 02:20 PM
  #734  
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Here is DLV. Notice how the flat track meets the flat cote d'azur and makes an angle with no transition:


Compare that to the smooth transitions of Rock Hill:



You can ride under the black line and onto the blue all day and not feel the difference here.
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Old 03-25-14, 02:31 PM
  #735  
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Originally Posted by carleton
Also, some tracks have the cote d'azur ON the banked part of the track. Some have it on the level ground. So, again, it depends.
If I recall correctly, San Jose is like that. I always thought that track was the easiest track for new riders - not too flat, not too bumpy, not too banked. I was glued to the black band all the way around the track and loved it. I think got in trouble a few times for passing under the black in races, but other than that a good solid track. I was really hoping to get down there this year, but plans are not likely to work out for that. But it is on my list of tracks to visit next year. Alpenrose, Marymoor and hopefully some late season riding up in Canada at Burnaby are all that I will be able to do this year.
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Old 03-25-14, 02:35 PM
  #736  
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Originally Posted by Quinn8it
Masters Nats last year at Indy- I did my first and only Flying 200 on a 333. I didn't get much track time before I rode it, and didn't piece much of a practice effort together before.

At about the middle of turn 3-4 I hit a sponge on the apron. I shot up to the blue line. I quickly made piece with the reality that I was Crashing- and decided that I would at least keep pedaling until the impact. Ended up not over reacting and taking a decent line despite the bad situation.

Qualified 2nd..

I agree Fast trumps Line.. But if you can put them both together that is better.
Good job, and I agree both is better. Also keep pedaling is good advice for the track in general, I have seen many riders create more problems by trying to hit the brakes instead of riding up and around something or holding their line. Of course hitting the breaks hard has its advantages too.
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Old 03-25-14, 02:46 PM
  #737  
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I've suggested that DLV move the cote d'azur up on to the track and move the measurement (black) line up accordingly.

Pros:
- Increase the track length from 327M to standard 333M
- Make riding time trials faster and easier (for the reasons discussed above)

Cons:
- This effectively decreases the track width (but not the rid-able width which won't change)
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Old 03-26-14, 06:32 AM
  #738  
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^ lots of interesting input and discussion here. thanks.

fwiw I experimented a bit with keeping my head in line with my body in the turns (i tend to keep it upright relative to the ground, and see most people on my track do, too), and thats helping keep the bike where i'm aiming it, without having to fight. still need to do more of this at higher speeds. will also tryout some other techniques

(Jmikami, i agree that flat out is number one, but flat out and on the line is definitely better, i'm sure you'll agree )
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Old 03-26-14, 08:13 AM
  #739  
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Anyone have any experience with Planet X 82mm carbon tubulars? Saw some at the track last night and got interested. Seems like a decent deal for my first pair of tubulars (and a pair of dedicated race wheels).
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Old 03-26-14, 08:19 AM
  #740  
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Originally Posted by carleton
I've suggested that DLV move the cote d'azur up on to the track and move the measurement (black) line up accordingly.
Pros:
- Increase the track length from 327M to standard 333M
- Make riding time trials faster and easier (for the reasons discussed above)
Cons:
- This effectively decreases the track width (but not the rid-able width which won't change)
This seems like an obvious improvement to me. Is it just a matter of cost, or is there vocal opposition? People often like to cling tradition for irrational reasons... and I can imagine chirping like "but that would make all our track records irrelevant."
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Old 03-26-14, 09:48 AM
  #741  
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Originally Posted by VanceMac
This seems like an obvious improvement to me. Is it just a matter of cost, or is there vocal opposition? People often like to cling tradition for irrational reasons... and I can imagine chirping like "but that would make all our track records irrelevant."
even on weird distance track (like Encino 252m) events are run by the meter not the lap
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Old 03-26-14, 10:34 AM
  #742  
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Originally Posted by Quinn8it
even on weird distance track (like Encino 252m) events are run by the meter not the lap
Clearly. But when the track is changed, they will inevitably draw distinctions between performances pre- and post- reconfiguration. I'm not agreeing, just suggesting that there are all kinds of (mostly irrational) reasons people use to resist change.
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Old 03-26-14, 10:41 AM
  #743  
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Originally Posted by VanceMac
This seems like an obvious improvement to me. Is it just a matter of cost, or is there vocal opposition? People often like to cling tradition for irrational reasons... and I can imagine chirping like "but that would make all our track records irrelevant."
Yeah, I think it was a matter of cost, or that they had "bigger fish to fry" in terms of track maintenance.

Originally Posted by Quinn8it
even on weird distance track (like Encino 252m) events are run by the meter not the lap
DLV is on the mile standard, 5 laps = 1 mile. So, their longer races are sometimes 5, 8, and 10 mile scratch races.

The biggest difference comes when you do Kilos and Pursuits. On a standard 333M all events start and end on the Pursuit Line. But, being that the measurement line is 327M, events start at various points on the track and end at the Pursuit line.

For example, for a home straight finish:

- Kilos starts 18M back from the Pursuit Line
- 2Ks start shortly after the exit from turn 4
- 3Ks start in the middle of turns 3/4
- 4Ks start right before the entrance into turn 4

So, for a 3K and 4K effort, you have to start on the apron because you obviously can't start on the banking.

If everything started and ended on the Pursuit Line, this would be easier.
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Old 03-27-14, 10:51 AM
  #744  
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We go the other way, start everything on the pursuit line because the banking is pretty sharp/steep. So a kilo is 7 laps plus part way into corner 1 haha. For most races we don't care what the distance ends up, we just count laps.
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Old 03-27-14, 11:15 AM
  #745  
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Our track does both different starts and different finishes (268.4 meter or 1/6 mile). Pursuits all finish in the middle of the straights, but 4k starts almost in corner one ... you really need to get on it fast for the 43 degree bank coming at you. But the 3k starts in corner 4 so you have to start on the apron. Kilos and 500s start at the exit of corner 2, but the 500 finishes between 1 and 2, and the kilo finishes after the finish line just before you enter corner 1. Really confusing to people who have not raced our track before. But at least the pursuit line is solid now, there use to be a layer of air between the surface and the foundation that would suck the life out of your efforts. I always rode my pursuits on the blue band on the straights until they fixed this issue. Lucky for me they did not have sponges on the straights.

If anyone has spare funds for a track reno, we would love to change our track to a 250 meter with new banking.
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Old 03-27-14, 11:31 AM
  #746  
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Originally Posted by Velocirapture

fwiw I experimented a bit with keeping my head in line with my body in the turns (i tend to keep it upright relative to the ground, and see most people on my track do, too), and thats helping keep the bike where i'm aiming it, without having to fight. still need to do more of this at higher speeds. will also tryout some other techniques

I know some people that really try to keep their head level, I assume its a comfort thing but also a way to see further head, looking through the turn instead of at the turn, which is good. When you get the speed up though (<40kmh) this becomes nearly impossible and probably a good strain on the neck in tight corners.
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Old 03-27-14, 01:05 PM
  #747  
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For me the head tilt is all about seeing the correct spot on the track in the corners. It is almost like getting a breath when swimming and is something I see in most track racers. It also helps to open up your vision during match sprints to give your partner a sense that you are not paying attention to them. I actually listen for bike sounds and position movements while trying to keep my eyes open to both front and back at the same time. I am actually not looking at anything but trying to almost dull my vision to just peripheral and help me bring out sounds that I can't hear when I am actively looking around. While I am no longer very good at match sprints I still find them the most fun to do and watch.
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Old 03-27-14, 02:13 PM
  #748  
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From the basement of Graham obree: can you find any reason that bullhorns flipped amd turned down would be illegal for mass starts? Assume the proper stem and angle to get over fit rules.

I don't have any intention to do this, just a wild thought.
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Old 03-27-14, 02:37 PM
  #749  
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Originally Posted by Kayce
From the basement of Graham obree: can you find any reason that bullhorns flipped amd turned down would be illegal for mass starts? Assume the proper stem and angle to get over fit rules.

I don't have any intention to do this, just a wild thought.
Comments on Article 1.3.022:

Only the traditional type of handlebars is authorised for use in massed-start road races, cyclo-cross and track competitions (except for individual and team pursuit, kilometer and 500 time trials).
Source: UCI TECHNICAL REGULATIONS FOR BICYCLES A PRACTICAL GUIDE TO IMPLEMENTATION
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Old 03-27-14, 04:22 PM
  #750  
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This is one of my favorite videos that was popular around the 2012 summer olympics featuring team New Zealand practicing team pursuit I believe in Switzerland. There are many things I like about this vid including the music but it shows the line around the track the team uses and how they hit the black like. Dave Le Grys, (current world record holder 500 meter 50 - 55 and world champion) who was one of the British coaches that ran the pursuit clinic, had us practice going from the red line to the black line as a potentially better line on the 250 track albeit slightly longer but faster by losing less speed in the turns. Dave gave us a lot of ideas that international teams were using to improve performance. Dave is also one of these scary coaches who tries to scare racers

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