ThermionicScott 

Good on you for getting back into it!

I don't have any particular exercises to share; I found that my attitude made the biggest difference wrt climbing hills. In 2012 or so, a switch went off in my head, and suddenly I loved climbing hills. I sought them out on rides, I poured on the gas when they arrived, and I found myself smiling as I spun or stood on those pedals.

I don't know how to transfer that mindset to anyone else, but perhaps by starting small and "claiming" the easy hills first, you'll get to enjoy them and challenge yourself on longer and steeper climbs.

wolfchild

Riding a road bike on rollers indoors isn't going to improve your ability to climb hills on a MTB on singletrack. Climbing steep hills on singletrack is more than just power, it's also a skill and technique...Riding a road on rollers or climbing hills on paved road on a road bike isn't the same as climbing hills on technical singletrack. You need to get on your MTB and go out and start practising on the actual hills, until you become more comfortable. If you can only ride twice a week , use that time to ride outside on the actual trails. You are already doing some indoor gym work, there is no need for wasting time on rollers, just go ride outside and focus on developing the skills.

Lemond1985

I was gonna suggest a large fixed gear, riding up modest hills (in too big a gear) and then back down (in too small a gear). You develop power going up the hills, and good spin coming back down (you're forced to). That's a workout that will leave me sore the next day, and shocking the body is what it's all about.

I remember hearing stories about racers at winter training camps going up hills in the biggest gear, I could see that being effective. Much more so that doing what most people on bikes do, just ride for hours at the exact same moderate pace, IMO that kind of "training" is only good for building endurance.

The biggest factor really is what type of muscles you have. I'm a fast-twitch track rider-type, and I've tried dozens of ways of improving my climbing, and other than losing weight, none have really been very effective. So like the sprinters in the Tour de France, I climb slow and steady, resigning myself with the knowledge that there's no way I will ever be able to keep up with pure climber (unless they're REALLY out of shape ) I just don't have the right type of muscle fiber. Beating them in flatland sprints is really the best I can realistically hope for. A few group rides will quickly let you know which type of rider you are.

noglider 

See if you can build up the length of time you can ride out of the saddle. That helps, among all the other techniques for hill improvement. It's one that helped me a lot.

wolfchild

That's what I do...I use fixed gear cross bike with 74 gear inches for road riding.

BengalCat

Want to be a great climber and excellent all-around road cyclist? It's all about power, especially the power to weight ratio, and for most, (not all), the ability to efficiently do sustained high cadence.

Whatever training and exercises that accomplish the above will get you what you seek.

rubiksoval

But why? If your goal is to do 40 minutes steady at 115-120 in zone two, then sure. Sounds great. Weren't you mentioning specificity and all?

If your goal is not that, then again, what's the point other than old-school silliness?

These are simple fundamentals that you, despite riding 10000 + miles a year, apparently lose the ability to do while riding said 10000+ miles a year and have to redo them each year in order to be able to do them?

To me, that says they're utterly pointless.

Save for having a crank fall off 20 miles from nowhere and having to one-leg pedal myself back home, that has nothing to do with anything.

rubiksoval

They did that because they did spinups, big gear work, and one legged work?

Or they did that because they were highly talented athletes with extreme outlier aerobic capabilities (which has nothing to do with spinups, big gear work, and one-legged work).

asgelle

Based on the fact that between the two of them the only achievement that could be cited was winning the RAAM relay one year, I wouldn't say they were extreme outliers.

The funny thing is I'm sure Ed Burke would never want someone to take his word based on his athletic accomplishments (or his resume for that matter). He believed in evidence-based science.

Lemond1985

Sounds like my setup. A 5-6% grade is torture on a 74 inch gear. Feels like at least 14-15%.

Carbonfiberboy 

Then don't do them. But don't shout down people who have had success doing them. I do what the Eds told me to do and found their workouts to have made me much more successful than I have any right to be. 10 PRs on last Sunday's tandem ride, though I only started uploading to Strava when I was 66 in 2012, and though we're only doing fundamentals.

I don't ride 10,000 miles/year. Never more than 5000 and now am down to less than 4000, counting roller miles.

I seems to me that few people on here believe in periodization. I start with the fundamentals and over a period of many months, gradually move to specifics, though retaining some fundamental work until the high season. When all one is doing is specifics, one gradually loses touch with the fundamentals. Similarly, if all one does is hard intervals, one loses endurance adaptations. I start over every year, and I begin with the fundamentals.

rubiksoval

I don't mean to "shout down", I just find your posts on such matters paradoxical in that you'll claim specificity and results being things that matter, but then assert stuff like pedaling one-legged matters, too. It doesn't add up. Nor do you seem like the type of person that just "does things because someone tells you do them". Again, results matter and all.

I certainly believe in periodization in so much as moving from general fitness to specific fitness. I just don't see how arbitrary pedaling is either general or specific. To me, it's neither. It's just a notion based on how things used to be done for whatever reason and were and still are a waste of time. If you have lots of time to waste or simply enjoy doing random things for the sake of doing then, then cool. But I don't think they should be mentioned when talking about actual performance.

My entire point is this: if pedaling one legged or super fast or super slow were actually fundamental, you wouldn't lose the ability to do those things while engaging in a sport that is 100% pedaling.

rubiksoval

I misread that and thought it said Burke was on the National Team at the OTC.

Hermes

I periodize my training or at least my coach does. It starts with strength and adaptation that is as non specific as it gets considering that some of it is not done on the bicycle.

I have found that neurological connection in sports is not permanent. I am also a golfer. The golf swing is complex and no matter how many swings one has with expert eye watching every move, one changes. Errors and idiosyncrasies appear and must be corrected. One could argue that is because it is so complex which is true. However, I find that even simple movements can change and need fixing.

Pedaling drills and spin ups seem a little like eyewash to me but for beginners I think they make sense. I do low cadence work to make sure that the neurological connections / muscle recruitment stays tuned up. I assume there is regression to a less optimal muscle recruitment. For low cadence work, I ride tempo so I do not consider that a waste of time and get an aerobic workout. I like to do them on the time trial bike. I think they are a great on the bike strength builder for rookies.

Over the last 10 years, I have millions of pedal revolutions in my legs. Do I assume my pedal stroke is perfect and immaterial anyway? Does perfect even matter? Perfect pedal stroke certainly does not affect the blood volume I have on the right hand side of my heart which is mostly genetic and may be indicative of VO2 max capability.

TL/DR I do not see a problem doing pedaling drills, spin ups, riding rollers and high cadence / low cadence work. However, if the pedal force is too low, there will not be much if any aerobic benefit.

jrhoneOC

Great stuff guys!

jrhoneOC

Thanks for this! I actually have started to seek out hills and climb them, smaller ones for now. When I see a grade coming up, I actually have started to shift up, and stand and power up the grade and keeping my momentum rather than shift down and stay seated. My attitude is more to attack the climbs rather than granny gear them. Have not done this on longer climbs yet, but today I am going to some trails with some climbing involved...lets see how I do...I am 15 pounds lighter and in better shape than the last time I did this trail, so lets see how it goes.

79pmooney

Fix gears for uphill power - yeah! I've been doing it for decades. Pluses - it trains all the support muscles for out-of-the-seat climbing; the train of muscles for pushing down on the pedals from your hands, arms, shoulders and abdomen as well as the opposite ones for pulling up on the pedals. You get to know your breathing vs reserves very intimately. Gives you the ability to "hump" over a quick steep section instead of bogging down.

Now,on long, geared rides, that isn't how you climb if the next hill also matters. But that fix gear time will make all of those hills easier (plus make those out-of-the-saddle moments when you have to because you need a break from sitting a real break).

For fix gear hill workouts, the fact that you have to spin down them in that same (now tiny) gear means you get excellent blood flow and lactic acid recovery. I used to ride up Oakland, CA's Jauquim Miller to Skyline Blvd in a 42-17 (67"), turn around at the top and fly down at something like 200 RPM. I'd roll back into Alameda with legs that were not tight at all despite climbing 1000' in that big gear. (sI'd also take my geared bike up Shepard's Canyon, over Skyline, down Pinehurst, then over to Mt. Diablo, up and retrace my route home. Yes, I am a pure climber. But those midweek, crazy fix gear climbs helped a lot!

Ben

burnthesheep

The short of it: give up on your "general" health pursuits unless it makes you faster up a hill.

Forget anything other than weights to make sure you don't injure yourself while "living" thus keeping you off the bike. Some core work is fine. Some yoga work to stay limber for "doing life". You said climbing, not track racing.

Going to have to get skinny. No dessert, no pop, no beer, etc... Like salad? Good. Like black coffee or plain espresso? Good. Not L.A. in his primer doper days? Sorry, then if you're average height you're going to be looking for a "6" as the first digit in kilograms instead of a "7".

Lots and lots and lots of intervals. 3x8, 3x15, 2x20, SS, 3x3's. Like wanting to cry? Tasting your breakfast again? Good.

Then you'll be on your way.

Lemond1985

Fortunately you're in an area with some "monster" climbs within reasonable driving distance. Check out the Top 10 Hardest So Cal climbs, according to PJAMM Cycling:

https://pjammcycling.com/zone/22.Southern%20California

Group rides where you drop a lot of people on climbs would probably be fun and confidence-building, whereas group rides where YOU get dropped on climbs ... not quite as fun or confidence-building, I've found. Seriously though, competition is really the best way to extend and improve your abilities, but boy is it painful. Especially if you don't win.

colombo357

Correct, no road climb is going to simulate a properly difficult MTB climb here in Socal.

A local favorite is Cholla at Aliso and Wood Canyons. It is tight, loose, and steep, with little to no flat sections for reprieve. Not overly technical (it's a blue trail), just a really good ass kicker. Pretty much a 4-8 minute VO2 max + anaerobic climb depending on your fitness.

jrhoneOC

Funny u mention Cholla. I go there once a month and i use that to gauge my ability. I have not been able to complete it. I can get about 1/3 of the way at this point. I think there are some technical aspects as there are big ruts, big rocks, sand and cactus on both sides of the singletrack and its steep. A mistake could be painful. Lol. For the next month im going to really work on cardio endurance. My legs are mot tired but it feels like my lungs are going to explode. Lol.

canklecat

I go back and forth between legs and lungs. Between the two, burning lungs feels more painful than burning legs. After awhile the legs go beyond burning and just go numb. But the lungs -- actually it's probably the diaphragm and intercostal muscles -- never get numb. It just keeps hurting worse and worse.

For me, to improve my cardio I have to spin as fast as I can sustain for the designated trainer session, depending on whether I'm doing intervals or sustained steady efforts.

That's pretty easy at home. I just set up a timer with voice prompts, and watch movies or TV series. Bike training videos bore me. I mostly binge watch sci-fi or good distractions.

But off the trainer I was still struggling so I switched to mashing harder gears outdoors, including more extended standing to pedal. A couple of blocks away is a quiet neighborhood with several parallel half-mile 1% and 2% grades, so I try to stand to pedal the entire distance at low cadence, high gear. That strengthened my legs a lot.

But I've neglected my trainer sessions so my cardio has suffered. Recently I've lost a step on some outdoor segments that used to be easier, mostly because I haven't done the high cadence cardio training for a couple of months.

Drew Eckhardt 

1. Eat less and exercise more to reduce weight.
2. Ride 6+ hours every week (outdoors or on a trainer) below your aerobic threshold. Do that first thing in the morning before eating so your energy substrate utilization is biased more towards fat. That will be more pleasant with lights outside.
3. Ride 7-10 minute intervals until you can't exceed your anaerobic threshold once a week, preferably up hill or on a trainer where you have less inertia to get you through the weak spots in your pedaling. Do that first thing in the morning before eating you don't throw up.

For all but the shortest intervals you're limited by how much oxygen you can get to your muscles and how much you weigh, not strength.

CAT7RDR

Look for opportunities to force yourself to ride beyond your comfort level.

Today I was strolling at about 7.5 mph up a 2 mile canyon road with a 6%-8% grade. About one mile in, I was passed by two younger more fit cyclists at about 10 mph. I realized I was dragging up my last hill for this ride and this was my incentive to force myself to be competitive and kick it up a gear. I averaged about 9.5 mph for the rest of the climb.

I was not exhausted but had settled for a comfortable pace justifying I already had done considerable climbing instead of pushing myself.

I am 55 y/o and this was a good lesson on not settling for comfort. It was more mental than physical. I chose to be competitive and dig a little deeper to finish strong.

eja_ bottecchia

Walk, no, run, to your nearest e-bike purveyor.