raqball

Please keep this thread on track and be respectful. The other thread was shut down due to it getting off track. Mods if this thread is unwanted, please feel free to delete it since the other was closed down by you all.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...his-track-bike

Charlie Alliston was convicted of causing bodily harm in the death. He was cleared of the manslaughter charge. The judge in the case slammed him for not showing any remorse at all and said he could face jail time at sentencing.

Snip from the above-linked article:
Be safe and ride legally all!

jefnvk

Sounds like there is a very good chance he will serve prison time, from the statements of the Judge. Eligible to be sentenced up to 2 years and unlimited monetary fines.

From The Sun article and the blurb I just heard on BBC Radio, it also sounds like prosecutors botched up on the variation of manslaughter they chose to charge under. Judge would have accepted a 10 out of 12 conviction, but they couldn't hit that threshold. Guess his "brakes wouldn't matter" claim worked.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/429582...on-kim-briggs/ (NOTE: some sidebar ads in the link may be very NSFW)

raqball

I personally don't think that claim worked in this case as if it had, he would have been completely cleared. I think based on my reading of it, is that they overcharged or mischarged on the manslaughter charge.

I'd bet the judge will give him the max. Never a good sign when the judge makes comments like that.

gecho

If only he'd been driving a car, would have got a few points on his license and no charges.

JonnyHK 

The manslaughter charge was always going to be a tough sell to a jury.

He's an immature **** on a bike, not a violent thug.


(Oh! I see the censor is up to date on English colloquial name-calling too! Word rhymes with 'splat'...)

coominya

It's worth discussing, this case, we all face a similar risk I guess and I would hate to do jail time just because of a lapse of concentration. With no rego my bikes have no public liability insurance, that in itself opens a can of worms if I seriously injured someone.

Mind you I would never consider riding without one. He was definitely being irresponsible at the very least.

Hoopdriver

A couple of years in lockup may help him mature - or mold him into a violent thug.

Juan Foote

truth

jefnvk

Or, you know, not had he not been bragging on forums about his aggressive riding style and about teaching her a lesson. A contrite, not combative, attitude probably would have went a long way as well.

After this case, I'm left believing there are a few cycling advocates around here that would wind up screwed if they ever found themselves in the same situation and the prosecutor came across their postings.

JoeyBike

Or videos.

andr0id

From this page, it seem he got very lucky he didn't get the manslaughter conviction.

Homicide; Murder and Manslaughter: Legal Guidance: The Crown Prosecution Service

See Definition of Homicide section

gecho

Where are all the convicted fans of The Fast and the Furious movies? How often are motorist contrite about the people they kill? The general public certainly isn't given the comments you see.

raqball

Agree. If anything else, showing some remorse might have saved him prison time. It sounds like the judge noticed this, commented on it, and I think he will get the max allowed by the law.

Agree again. They think that by putting a disclaimer on their posts and videos will matter. It's only a matter of time before an incident happens either to them, or someone following their advice.

Is saving a few seconds really worth killing someone, causing an accident that kills or harms someone, ending up in prison and losing everything over a civil lawsuit? To some I guess the answer is sure, I saved 4 seconds off my ride.

It never happens until it does.

JoeyBike

Is looking at a phone (or daydreaming) in traffic worth dying over? Why am I charged as a baby sitter for every distracted individual on Earth. I am worried about my safety only. I sure don't want to hurt anyone else but I can't pay attention for them. If I can do something to save the life of some mindless individual, I am in. If I can't, it wasn't really my problem in the first place. I would feel terrible if someone were injured by me even if it were 100% their fault but my feelings would fall very short of remorse. Remorse is a barometer of guilt. If someone is not guilty, or truly believes themselves to be not guilty, there should be no remorse. We can feel badly without remorse.

REMORSE: Deep regret or guilt for a wrong committed.

Remorse is an ADMISSION of guilt, which is why I assume the kid showed no remorse in a trial. Remorse is a form of confession. Any judge should know this.

"I am truly sorry that woman went and got herself killed. She did not deserve to die for lack of paying attention." is not remorse. It is simpatico or empathy. Maybe he could have said something like that but it would only have made things worse. So he shut up, which was the smartest move.

raqball

The kid, in this case, appears to fit this description from everything I've seen and read:

Sociopath:
Lack of conscience, lack of remorse, guilt or shame. The most incredible trait of a sociopath, is their complete lack of conscience, lack of empathy, remorse, guilt or shame. ...

The judge noticed it, commented on it and I believe will max him out because of it. I have no doubt that the jury noticed it as well.

JoeyBike

You mean he might get elected to public office??!!

(Are judges and juries QUALIFIED to make that diagnosis without an in-depth psychiatric exam? Kid could be traumatized and terrified with the same external symptoms.)

JonnyHK 

https://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.co.u...trial.html?m=1

There are a few interesting things in this blog by a British lawyer. Some technical arguments, some legal arguments and some other thoughts.

I was particularly intrigued by the (presumably) deliberate choice of charges to elevate this from the Magistrates Court to the Crown Court, even when suitable charges did exist at that 'lower' level.

king_boru

Put yourselves in the husband's shoes. I'm sure your opinions would change.

Nooner

It takes a special kind of numb nut to ride a bike with no brakes on the street.
No brakes = No Control of Machine

mr_bill

Wow. The Cycling Lawyer ought to know better and his legal arguments are weak at best.

The suitable charges are indeed wanton or furious driving *and* unlawful act manslaughter.

A person driving a car the suitable charges would be causing death by dangerous driving.

A person driving a car not on a public way the suitable charges would be wanton or furious driving *and* unlawful act manslaughter.

In 2015 in Hererford, a cyclist pled guilty to wanton or furious driving in causing the bodily harm (death) to a pedestrian. Speed was not a factor. (Brakes were a factor!)

And in 2009 in Weymouth, a cyclist pled guilty to wanton or furious driving in causing the bodily harm (death) to a pedestrian. Speed was a factor.

Finally, this prosecution was not the result of "prejudice that motoring is innocuous and cycling dangerous!"

This prosecution was the result of the fact that dangerous operators are dangerous.

-mr. bill

dynodonn 

If only motorists would travel at the speeds that these cyclists were being convicted of traveling at.
I've had several pedestrians in their being unaware when stepping out into traffic without giving vehicles on the roadway sufficient time to stop, and the last pedestrian to do so, laughed at the evasive actions I took to avoid hitting her.

raqball

A slightly different scenario here but I'll mention it anyway.

I generally avoid the local MUP's because they are inundated with clueless pedestrians. People walking dogs off leash, kids roaming about, skateboarders who are clueless and rollerbladers swerving all over the place. To add to the danger, more than half have headphones in and can't hear a word you shout anyways.

When I do get on a MUP, I slow when I see pedestrians ahead because I know how unpredictable they are. Yet I still see cyclists who are trying to beat a Strava record, shave 4 seconds off their ride time, impress others with their speed or train for the next TDF (sarcasm). They blaze along at high speed when they encounter these pedestrians and then they throw a temper tantrum when a small child makes an unexpected maneuver and they have to react.

Anyways, in this case, I do not think the cyclist would have been convicted if his bike were legal.

dynodonn 

I avoid our local MUPs like the plague do to the erratic nature of the people using it, the roadway may not be the optimal place for many cyclists, by I would rather use it due it's more predictable traffic patterns.
My last encounter with a careless pedestrian, I was traveling between 20 to 25 mph on a 35 mph roadway, in middle of the lane with a strobe headlamp, with two very capable working brakes, and still skidded past the pedestrian after my taking evasive actions.

mr_bill

I'm not aware of any jurisdiction that would ever try someone for not crashing into a pedestrian.

-mr. bill

raqball

Agree but what I am saying is that if his bike was legal and the incident had still occurred exactly as it did, I do not think he would have been charged or convicted.