Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Wider Tires in the Pro Peleton

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Wider Tires in the Pro Peleton

Old 04-11-14, 07:05 AM
  #1  
jeirvine 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jeirvine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Baltimore MD
Posts: 3,972

Bikes: '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72 Gitane tandem, '72 Raleigh Super Course, '73 Raleigh Gran Sport, '73 Colnago Super, '76 Fiorelli Coppi, '78 Raleigh SBDU Team Pro, '78 Trek 930, '81 Holdsworth Special 650B, '86 Masi GC, ’94 Bridgestone RB-T

Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 784 Post(s)
Liked 515 Times in 279 Posts
Wider Tires in the Pro Peleton

Interesting article on tire selection for Paris Roubaix at Cycling Tips:

Tyre trends: what the teams are using for Paris-Roubaix | CyclingTips

"We’ve seen 25mm become the new 23mm when it comes to tyres in regular road races, and now in the world of cobbles, 30mm seems to be the new 27mm. Tyres are becoming wider from what many mechanic have told me, though this is causing a few problems. Not all teams can accommodate this with the bikes and calipers they are issued by sponsors. That said, it’s a trend I’m sure we’ll slowly see grow in the peloton in years to come."

Looks like it's now safe to be a retro-grouch and a road fan.
__________________
The man who dies with the most toys…is dead. - Rootboy
jeirvine is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 07:12 AM
  #2  
OldsCOOL
Senior Member
 
OldsCOOL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: northern michigan
Posts: 13,317

Bikes: '77 Colnago Super, '76 Fuji The Finest, '88 Cannondale Criterium, '86 Trek 760, '87 Miyata 712

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Liked 595 Times in 313 Posts
They have obviously been listening to our panel of experts at BF.

Last edited by OldsCOOL; 04-11-14 at 07:19 AM.
OldsCOOL is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 07:14 AM
  #3  
rootboy 
Senior Member
 
rootboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wherever
Posts: 16,755
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 132 Times in 78 Posts
Or to Jan Heine.
rootboy is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 07:26 AM
  #4  
non-fixie 
Shifting is fun!
 
non-fixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 11,003

Bikes: Yes, please.

Mentioned: 277 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2182 Post(s)
Liked 4,526 Times in 1,743 Posts
We are way ahead ... It'll be steel next
__________________
Are we having fun, or what ...



non-fixie is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 08:44 AM
  #5  
ldmataya 
Senior Member
 
ldmataya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Mt. Horeb, Wisconsin
Posts: 535
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked 43 Times in 28 Posts
Originally Posted by non-fixie
We are way ahead ... It'll be steel next
Good point! Just watch - in a race like Paris Roubiax where there is barely a meter of elevation change someone will try a new "comfort range" steel racing bicycle to compete with the Trek Domane.
ldmataya is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 10:34 AM
  #6  
jeirvine 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jeirvine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Baltimore MD
Posts: 3,972

Bikes: '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72 Gitane tandem, '72 Raleigh Super Course, '73 Raleigh Gran Sport, '73 Colnago Super, '76 Fiorelli Coppi, '78 Raleigh SBDU Team Pro, '78 Trek 930, '81 Holdsworth Special 650B, '86 Masi GC, ’94 Bridgestone RB-T

Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 784 Post(s)
Liked 515 Times in 279 Posts
I hope it means more options for nice 27s- 32s trickling down to the us non-racer market. Compass needs some more competition.
__________________
The man who dies with the most toys…is dead. - Rootboy
jeirvine is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 11:09 AM
  #7  
OldsCOOL
Senior Member
 
OldsCOOL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: northern michigan
Posts: 13,317

Bikes: '77 Colnago Super, '76 Fuji The Finest, '88 Cannondale Criterium, '86 Trek 760, '87 Miyata 712

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Liked 595 Times in 313 Posts
Can a breakaway with a team of uprights be far off?
OldsCOOL is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 11:43 AM
  #8  
David Newton
Wood
 
David Newton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Beaumont, Tx
Posts: 2,304

Bikes: Raleigh Sports: hers. Vianelli Professional & Bridgestone 300: mine

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
A whole team of Schwinn fat tire cruisers, for the win!
David Newton is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 11:54 AM
  #9  
jimmuller 
What??? Only 2 wheels?
 
jimmuller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Boston-ish, MA
Posts: 13,452

Bikes: 72 Peugeot UO-8, 82 Peugeot TH8, 87 Bianchi Brava, 76? Masi Grand Criterium, 74 Motobecane Champion Team, 86 & 77 Gazelle champion mondial, 81? Grandis, 82? Tommasini, 83 Peugeot PF10

Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1222 Post(s)
Liked 645 Times in 232 Posts
So why exactly has 25 become the new 23? Surely it isn't because they are faster. Maybe they just think they are faster.
__________________
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
jimmuller is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 11:55 AM
  #10  
jeirvine 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jeirvine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Baltimore MD
Posts: 3,972

Bikes: '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72 Gitane tandem, '72 Raleigh Super Course, '73 Raleigh Gran Sport, '73 Colnago Super, '76 Fiorelli Coppi, '78 Raleigh SBDU Team Pro, '78 Trek 930, '81 Holdsworth Special 650B, '86 Masi GC, ’94 Bridgestone RB-T

Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 784 Post(s)
Liked 515 Times in 279 Posts
Somebody should start a component/tire company called "Placebo."
__________________
The man who dies with the most toys…is dead. - Rootboy
jeirvine is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 12:07 PM
  #11  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,323
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3449 Post(s)
Liked 2,800 Times in 1,974 Posts
Originally Posted by jimmuller
So why exactly has 25 become the new 23? Surely it isn't because they are faster. Maybe they just think they are faster.
Structural frame Stiffness has played itself out. At some point, too much stiffness is too much after 180-200 km. Bigger tires can absorb more.

The tight clearances of forks and bikes has it appears hit one end of the pendulum. Many race bikes have the brake calipers set to the minimum reach of the brake pads. Maybe soon an influencial mfg. will design so that they need to set the pads at near the longest reach of the caliper. You read it here first.
"new improved, better aero, More room for air, you will be faster, wind tunnel tested and race proven"
repechage is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 12:16 PM
  #12  
OldsCOOL
Senior Member
 
OldsCOOL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: northern michigan
Posts: 13,317

Bikes: '77 Colnago Super, '76 Fuji The Finest, '88 Cannondale Criterium, '86 Trek 760, '87 Miyata 712

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Liked 595 Times in 313 Posts
So much for saving milligrams of weight.
OldsCOOL is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 12:25 PM
  #13  
cruiserhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
the widespread use of carbon rims has helped negate the added weight of larger tires. Even Paris-Roubaix is exclusively run on carbon rims. I don't think anyone this year will run metal rims. Maybe one or two riders

In the classics, it's obviously better for wider tubulars where lower psi and pave are the norm. Better comfort and less chance of flatting.

25's are becoming more widespread because of the shape of the contact patch. There is a compromise between comfort/flatting/rolling resistance/weight/handling with 25s that is acceptable for racing.

It's also the trend now, and that trend may change with the wind.
cruiserhead is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 12:32 PM
  #14  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,354 Times in 861 Posts
racers often ride what they are paid to, and sellers of the parts, decide what the sponsored teams demonstrate.
fietsbob is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 12:42 PM
  #15  
RobbieTunes
Banned.
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 27,297
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 1,407 Times in 908 Posts
Had a nice conversation about this with the Continental rep at NAHBS. Even though bicycle tires are less than 1% of their market, they take it seriously, but have the added advantage of using trickle-down technology from their motorcycle racing tire development. Michelin did some early studies in this, as well, and the design of the wider 23/25/and up tires does not necessarily mean slower, especially with a 19-21mm rim.

Continental is quite comfortable telling us that their 700x25's have lower rolling competitive or better than their 23's. They'll also tell you that Velocity's A23 rim, coupled with a 23mm tire, provides what Velocity claims: an aero combination. What's come of putting the 25's on 23mm wide rims was not something they intended to market: silky smooth ride, great handling, and no loss of "speed." Per the Continental guy, this is something they now are looking at from a marketing standpoint, i.e. "why ride a narrow rim/narrow tire, and wince on the chipseal, when you can go 23/25 and not even notice?"

I was skeptical about this. drrobwave was constantly trying to get me to run some 700x25GP's, and I resisted. dookie recommended 25's on my A23 rims, so I tried it. (Bang forehead). Why didn't I try this earlier? I'm only getting 25's from now on. (But not the Armadillo's, etc...) What will be neat is when tires like the Continental Triathlon (a GP4000 without most of the tread) starts coming in 25's.

Last edited by RobbieTunes; 04-12-14 at 09:28 PM.
RobbieTunes is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 12:44 PM
  #16  
jimmuller 
What??? Only 2 wheels?
 
jimmuller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Boston-ish, MA
Posts: 13,452

Bikes: 72 Peugeot UO-8, 82 Peugeot TH8, 87 Bianchi Brava, 76? Masi Grand Criterium, 74 Motobecane Champion Team, 86 & 77 Gazelle champion mondial, 81? Grandis, 82? Tommasini, 83 Peugeot PF10

Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1222 Post(s)
Liked 645 Times in 232 Posts
Originally Posted by repechage
Structural frame Stiffness has played itself out. At some point, too much stiffness is too much after 180-200 km. Bigger tires can absorb more.
Thank you. This makes perfect sense. From this answer I reason the difference between older days vs. now: With steel frames the tire's ability to absorb shock was less important because a lighter frame was more compliant anyway. With CF frames (and wheels) the frames can be very stiff while still very light, to the point where they are too stiff to ride easily or efficiently over long distances. So wider tires are used to compensate.
__________________
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
jimmuller is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 02:02 PM
  #17  
cruiserhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by jimmuller
Thank you. This makes perfect sense. From this answer I reason the difference between older days vs. now: With steel frames the tire's ability to absorb shock was less important because a lighter frame was more compliant anyway. With CF frames (and wheels) the frames can be very stiff while still very light, to the point where they are too stiff to ride easily or efficiently over long distances. So wider tires are used to compensate.
That is incorrect.
25s, carbon tubulars will make a steel bike perform better as well due to the contact patch shape (rolling resistance) and lighter weight over alloy rims.
Note that these are tied to wider rims to maximize aerodynamics and contact patch of wider tires.
Carbon rims are going to 23-25mm wide.

Most old wheels are in the 18-19mm width range.

Ride characteristics of carbon frames depends on the frame design. The advantage is compliance with bottom bracket stiffness and light weight that steel cannot match.

Wider tires are not making up for carbon frames.
This is simply a realization that wider tires are adding benefits without old school beliefs about narrow being a panacea for max speed problems.

Last edited by cruiserhead; 04-11-14 at 02:08 PM.
cruiserhead is offline  
Old 04-11-14, 05:09 PM
  #18  
iab
Senior Member
 
iab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Posts: 12,156
Mentioned: 200 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2993 Post(s)
Liked 3,710 Times in 1,393 Posts
Originally Posted by jeirvine
I hope it means more options for nice 27s- 32s trickling down to the us non-racer market. Compass needs some more competition.
Hear hear!

Minimal choices for 27-30mm road tires, and nothing I know of above 30mm other than a file tread cross tire.
iab is offline  
Old 04-12-14, 11:12 AM
  #19  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 9,171

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 132 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1554 Post(s)
Liked 1,274 Times in 846 Posts
Originally Posted by rootboy
Or to Jan Heine.
+1 on that! ^^^^^^^


I did a lot of training on heavy wheels in the 90's, on wheels that I built from "obsolete" 22-25mm rims.

Seemingly no one was doing that on the rides back then, in L.A. and Silicon Valley, that I frequented, but I persisted for many reasons:


First: As my vintage-bike collection began to grow, I found that wider rims and tires could be run at pressures that were further under the blow-out pressure limits that aged tires would tolerate, and I have long since confirmed that this is the way to go for maximal tire life of my ever-aging tires (the rims and tires that could so often can be had for free).

Second: The lower pressure was more comfortable, the wider, softer tires could cross invisible scatterings of gravel with noticeably less effect on traction.

Third: The wider rims also gave the wheel/tire more lateral stiffness that could be felt, with seemingly no increase in harshness as would result from using higher pressures with narrower rims.

Fourth: The wider contact patch afforded by lower pressure meant the tread lasted longer.

Fifth: Wider contact patches are also safer in peloton (group) riding, since there is less tendency for the tire to track pavement seams that are obscured from view by the riders in front of you.


It was quite a surprise for wider modern rims to emerge as being more aerodynamic, not less! This really tips the scales, since the aero benefit can overcome the weight penalty.

I look forward to the rim/tire industry further developing the wider contact patch products.

I suspect that the pinch-flat-prone, fast-wearing, groove-tracking 20mm tires of the 1980's went a long way toward limiting people's perception of road bicycles as "useful" and "fun", and it also feels great to finally see my own strange choice of wider rims and tires vindicated within group-riding and racing fraternities.

Now, I wonder if steel frames will perhaps follow the same re-discovery among group-riding cyclists(?), although, unlike wide rims, steel frames never disappeared so completely.

Last edited by dddd; 04-12-14 at 11:18 AM.
dddd is offline  
Old 04-12-14, 11:46 AM
  #20  
bane
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alameda, CA
Posts: 289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Still see steel frames in the track events at the olympics and plenty of steel in cyclocross. Now just need to get steel back in the pro peleton. It would be awesome if Cinelli put pros on a steel lugged classics or cobbles bike.
bane is offline  
Old 04-12-14, 12:31 PM
  #21  
revchuck 
OMC
 
revchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 6,960

Bikes: Specialized Allez Sprint, Look 585, Specialized Allez Comp Race

Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 461 Post(s)
Liked 116 Times in 49 Posts
Originally Posted by jimmuller
So why exactly has 25 become the new 23? Surely it isn't because they are faster. Maybe they just think they are faster.
Originally Posted by jeirvine
Somebody should start a component/tire company called "Placebo."
Racing teams don't use wider tires because they think they might be faster. Wider tires have been shown to have lower rolling resistance, and are demonstrably faster.

Originally Posted by iab
Hear hear!

Minimal choices for 27-30mm road tires, and nothing I know of above 30mm other than a file tread cross tire.
FWIW, Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires in 700x25 measure 27mm wide on my Open Pro rims, and I've read that they measure 28mm wide on 23mm rims. I understand that the Pro4 Service Course versions measure about the same.
__________________
Regards,
Chuck

Demain, on roule!
revchuck is offline  
Old 04-12-14, 12:33 PM
  #22  
cruiserhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by dddd
It was quite a surprise for wider modern rims to emerge as being more aerodynamic, not less! This really tips the scales, since the aero benefit can overcome the weight penalty.
The reason 23-25mm rims are more aero is the deep carbon shape of the rims. This aero improvement does not apply to box section rims.

I love my steel bike but I doubt it will ever become trendy in racing. Too heavy, even with the modern steel tubes available now.
Maybe for the sport/recreational guys.
I would love a good steel racing bike. Reasonably priced ones are hard to find though.
cruiserhead is offline  
Old 04-12-14, 02:08 PM
  #23  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 9,171

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 132 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1554 Post(s)
Liked 1,274 Times in 846 Posts
Originally Posted by cruiserhead
The reason 23-25mm rims are more aero is the deep carbon shape of the rims. This aero improvement does not apply to box section rims.

I love my steel bike but I doubt it will ever become trendy in racing. Too heavy, even with the modern steel tubes available now.
Maybe for the sport/recreational guys.
I would love a good steel racing bike. Reasonably priced ones are hard to find though.

I wasn't expecting steel frames to become race-competitive again, but that riders might find them to be a better choice for all other types of riding, including race-training, where it can be costly to rack up all of one's training miles on high-zoot bike, tires and wheels.

And of course box rims aren't going to be aero, only the deeper ones where greater width allows for a better aerodynamic shaping of the entire tire/rim profile.

Another surprising find is that traditional deep rims, with pointed shapes, are not only twitchy steering in crosswinds, but that they impose much greater drag in even a slight crosswind versus some of the more-modern deep rim designs.
The modern, wider/rounder-shaped rim profiles steer better and have much lower drag in crosswinds.

For all of my road training, at least my old-style box rims don't exaggerate crosswind's effects on steering. It's kinda funny that many racers use fancy wheels on training rides, some of these even being full carbon. But some riders seem to do all of their riding and racing on the same bike and same wheels, which at least has a certain simplicity to it.

Last edited by dddd; 04-12-14 at 02:12 PM.
dddd is offline  
Old 04-12-14, 02:51 PM
  #24  
cruiserhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by dddd
I wasn't expecting steel frames to become race-competitive again, but that riders might find them to be a better choice for all other types of riding, including race-training, where it can be costly to rack up all of one's training miles on high-zoot bike, tires and wheels.

And of course box rims aren't going to be aero, only the deeper ones where greater width allows for a better aerodynamic shaping of the entire tire/rim profile.

Another surprising find is that traditional deep rims, with pointed shapes, are not only twitchy steering in crosswinds, but that they impose much greater drag in even a slight crosswind versus some of the more-modern deep rim designs.
The modern, wider/rounder-shaped rim profiles steer better and have much lower drag in crosswinds.

For all of my road training, at least my old-style box rims don't exaggerate crosswind's effects on steering. It's kinda funny that many racers use fancy wheels on training rides, some of these even being full carbon. But some riders seem to do all of their riding and racing on the same bike and same wheels, which at least has a certain simplicity to it.
You are speaking in terms of minutae. Even rolling resistance between 23 and 25.

Even V-shaped carbon wheels are faster than box section.
I've not experienced "twitchy" handling with the old style Zipp 404's, and those were decently deep profile.
They get pushed in strong crosswinds for sure, but meh, so what. All this is personal preference on what you want to ride.

I used Mavic SSC SL's, which are the farthest thing from aero. Super stiff though, and loved them.

Carbon for training and racing <shrug> people can do whatever they want.
I'm not a hater. People can enjoy however they want.

Steel is more expensive than carbon framesets at this point.
If high quality steel racing frames become more popular, sure I would pick one up.

But all the modern features and advantages are built into equally or cheaper priced carbon frames.
cruiserhead is offline  
Old 04-12-14, 04:14 PM
  #25  
iab
Senior Member
 
iab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Posts: 12,156
Mentioned: 200 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2993 Post(s)
Liked 3,710 Times in 1,393 Posts
Originally Posted by dddd
I wasn't expecting steel frames to become race-competitive again
fwiw, I believe there is a U-23 pro team using steel. And my steel bike weighs 7.0kg and wouldn't take much to get it to 6.9.
iab is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.