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Chain length choices...

Old 06-29-20, 01:34 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by 52telecaster View Post
I have a tendency to ask too much of my drive trains. On this account I like big big. If it wont pull up all the slack in little little I don't care. I'll never be there.
Yes! If you're chain is too short and you accidentally shift into the big-big combination, bad things happen -- sometimes very bad. A chain in the spokes is a likely outcome. If your chain is too long and you shift into the small-small combination, probably nothing worse than a dropped chain is going to happen.

I was going through this last night with a SunTour rear derailleur setup. I put the chain on the big-big combination, threaded through the derailleur and the full chain pulled the derailleur forward a bit. Since I was using a quick-link chain, it was easy to install it like this and check the small-small. Small-small was too slack, so I went back to big-big and figure out how many links I was comfortable removing (two, in this case). Big-big still fit -- small-small was a little slacker than I'd like, but short of moving the wheel back in the drop-outs, I think this is the best I'll get.

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Old 06-29-20, 03:06 PM
  #27  
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Chain line is good, cable is brand new, and this pic shows big-big.

I thought of the hanger being out of alignment, but visually it looks good.
Without the tool I don't know how I'd check it more exactly, or tweak it.
You guys would probably frown if I suggested a crescent wrench!

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Old 06-29-20, 03:23 PM
  #28  
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Show a picture of big (F) small (R)
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Old 06-29-20, 03:27 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by John Nolan View Post
I may be misunderstanding you, but usually one starts with big to big, not small to small. See Park Tools method for a conservative approach, or look at Sheldon Brown's method.
my lbs and manufacturers recommend small small. I find that doing small small gives me the max chain length which has been helpful when doing 52/39 and 11-28 combos with 7400 durace see
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Old 06-29-20, 03:53 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by jiangshi View Post
Show a picture of big (F) small (R)
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Old 06-29-20, 04:20 PM
  #31  
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That looks good.
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Old 06-29-20, 07:01 PM
  #32  
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Thanks. At the risk of forumscorn I took a crescent wrench to the hanger and gave it some leverage. Not sure I gained much, if any, but thought it couldn't hurt.

The RD is now dropping down onto the 12 cog about half the time, better than before, but not right yet. When I re-assembled I double-checked my limits, and held pretty good tension on the cable, in the small cog, while tightening. It's still not jumping inward very successfully, so I'll also be working on that tomorrow.

I'm hoping it's my inexperience with brifters causing my woes, and that I'll figure it out eventually!
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Old 06-29-20, 10:11 PM
  #33  
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Chain length looks right to me. I think you're good.

You might want to play with your B screw adjustment, and see how that affects things. Usually I shoot for the RD cage to be a bit more parallel to the chainstay.

RE checking your hanger alignment without a tool, it can be done. I've always had a tool and but like I said earlier, you can do it with a rear wheel. Here's a video from RT:

I like to adjust the derailleurs without using brifters at all to start with. Yank on the cable by the downtube to shift.
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Old 06-30-20, 10:52 AM
  #34  
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Cool video, thanks for sharing it.
I'd be a bit nervous using a true wheel from one of my other bikes, though.
With the torque needed, I'd worry that the trueness of the levering wheel might be compromised.
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Old 06-30-20, 11:14 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by 67tony View Post
Cool video, thanks for sharing it.
I'd be a bit nervous using a true wheel from one of my other bikes, though.
With the torque needed, I'd worry that the trueness of the levering wheel might be compromised.
Thanks to RJ for making it. (not 'RT') I've heard of him but haven't really watched any of his videos. This one popped up with a quick google search.

I can understand your worry about tweaking a wheel, but IME wheels are pretty strong and derailleur hangers are not difficult to bend. OTOH, he used an MTB wheel for this... If you're worried about it, you could always use a wheel as a gauge only.
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Old 06-30-20, 02:45 PM
  #36  
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Buy a derailleur hanger adjustment tool, or borrow one. If you were still in DTW you could borrow mine, I'd even do it for you. It's a one beer job.

There has to be a member close to you that has one.
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Old 06-30-20, 03:12 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by jiangshi View Post
Buy a derailleur hanger adjustment tool, or borrow one. If you were still in DTW you could borrow mine, I'd even do it for you. It's a one beer job.
Nice. If I were still in the Motor City I'd be all over your offer!
They probably haven't had one in a while, but I've always regretted leaving Detroit before experiencing a Slow Roll. Those were supposedly quite the weekly event!

I'll pull the rear wheel off my hybrid and check the alignment that way. It sure looks close, but that will at least let me know if it is perfect or not. I may even use the wheel to tweak it, but will be proceeding cautiously.
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Old 06-30-20, 03:26 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by 67tony View Post
Nice. If I were still in the Motor City I'd be all over your offer!
They probably haven't had one in a while, but I've always regretted leaving Detroit before experiencing a Slow Roll. Those were supposedly quite the weekly event!

I'll pull the rear wheel off my hybrid and check the alignment that way. It sure looks close, but that will at least let me know if it is perfect or not. I may even use the wheel to tweak it, but will be proceeding cautiously.
its surprising how far it can be off and look ok. I wouldnt worry about tweaking your wheel. It can handle it.
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Old 06-30-20, 06:45 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by jiangshi View Post
Buy a derailleur hanger adjustment tool, or borrow one. If you were still in DTW you could borrow mine, I'd even do it for you. It's a one beer job.

There has to be a member close to you that has one.
Make one. The bolt will be the biggest problem (10mm x 1.0). Boltdepot.com carries them. Drill press is recommended.

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Old 06-30-20, 07:20 PM
  #40  
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Dual-wheel method showed the hanger a bit off, which I believe I corrected.
I'll hunt around for the tool, but until then I'm ruling the hanger aligned.

But, the RD is still not dropping the chain onto the small cog, messing up all other smaller cog shifting. I even lengthened the cable housing entering the DR, to decrease friction, just in case that had any affect.

How's this for a possibility? The top jockey wheel is so close to the 12t cog that chain stiffness slows or prevents the final shift?





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Old 06-30-20, 07:27 PM
  #41  
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To be fair, none of my shifting woes were ever caused by the length of the chain. It was always hanger alignment, RD, or cables.
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Old 06-30-20, 07:44 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Chain length looks right to me. I think you're good.

You might want to play with your B screw adjustment, and see how that affects things. Usually I shoot for the RD cage to be a bit more parallel to the chainstay.

.
Shimano seems to think the same. For me the thing would def have to be cranked down quite a bit to clear the small cog better.

JMO of course but finding some Shimano instructions to read might be illuminating
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Old 06-30-20, 07:59 PM
  #43  
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So if you completely slack the cable*, and back out the limit screw all the way, the RD still won't shift into the 12t? Ignore the brifters completely, shift by pulling the cable and letting it go.

* (let out like a half inch)
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Old 06-30-20, 08:58 PM
  #44  
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Have you got the cble secured the proper way in the derailleur cable anchor bolt?

Cheers
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Old 06-30-20, 09:16 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
Have you got the cble secured the proper way in the derailleur cable anchor bolt?

Cheers
Yes.
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Old 06-30-20, 09:23 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
So if you completely slack the cable*, and back out the limit screw all the way, the RD still won't shift into the 12t? Ignore the brifters completely, shift by pulling the cable and letting it go.

* (let out like a half inch)
Correct. About the only time the chain drops all the way onto the 12 is if I'm manually shifting, ignoring the brifters, and letting it drop from midway up the cassette. Drop-clicking one at a time, it stalls out on the 13 cog.

I'm liking my diagnosis of the jockey wheel being too close to the small cog, but don't know how to widen that distance. I'm not sure the B-limit screw would alter it that much...

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Old 06-30-20, 09:46 PM
  #47  
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I believe that the type of derailer housing is the problem here.

This is the old, very stiff 5mm housing that prevents the rear derailer from floating about the cassette properly under it's dual-sprung movement. No bueno.

If the housing were longer it would be less of a problem, but this derailer is from the 4mm housing era and needs more flexibility there.

By the way, did you perhaps use any grease on the cable? What you want for best shifting and strong return action toward the smallest cog is some original pre-lubricated SP-41 housing, 4mm in diameter and of sufficient length for the guide pulley to track the cassette profile.
And the cable guide at the bottom bracket should be plastic, or with plastic noodle at least guiding the cable there.

The 9s-era derailers used modest return-spring tension that relied on free cable movement along the entire path of the cable.
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Old 07-01-20, 12:08 AM
  #48  
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Can you post another image taken from the rear of the bike and looking towards the front? The one you posted earlier is too small to make out details.

Cheers
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Old 07-01-20, 09:34 AM
  #49  
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The B screw shouldn't need to be super optimized just for the RD to drop the chain into the smallest cog. Assuming the hanger is now close enough to aligned, that really only leaves friction issues. This could be isolated by disconnecting the RD from the cable completely. Shift it into the 13 by moving the parallelogram with manually, ie with your hand, and then let it go. If it drops right into the 12, then you have a hang up along your cable somewhere. If it still won't drop in, there's not much left except a still bent hanger, stiff pivots, or a weak spring in the derailleur. Maybe a tweaked jockey cage. I'd make sure your cable is moving smoothly first.

Personally I advocate plenty of grease. No cable has not moved because it had too much grease. However, if you are using high tech prelubed cables, along with the correct matching housing, you don't need too. OT but this was a big religious debate when lined housing first came out.

Also make sure any linings are properly opened up with an awl, and housing ends are ground smooth.
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Old 07-01-20, 10:54 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
I believe that the type of derailer housing is the problem here.

This is the old, very stiff 5mm housing that prevents the rear derailer from floating about the cassette properly under it's dual-sprung movement. No bueno.

If the housing were longer it would be less of a problem, but this derailer is from the 4mm housing era and needs more flexibility there.

By the way, did you perhaps use any grease on the cable? What you want for best shifting and strong return action toward the smallest cog is some original pre-lubricated SP-41 housing, 4mm in diameter and of sufficient length for the guide pulley to track the cassette profile.
And the cable guide at the bottom bracket should be plastic, or with plastic noodle at least guiding the cable there.
I bet this is the problem!
Although the cable is greased, the housing is definitely old, and stiff.
(The cable guide on the BB is plastic, and I even have that lightly greased as well.)
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