Hunter

https://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._france_doping

Smoothie104

Wow...........

MacMan

"The 27-year-old Millar, who has never failed a drug test in his eight-year professional career, is the highest-profile casualty of a decision announced Friday by Tour organizers that all riders investigated or implicated in doping probes will be barred from the event, which starts July 3."

https://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/6353.0.html

This is a shame because it forces to you wonder if it's really just about whether you get caught as opposed to whether or not the person is actually doing it.

kerank

Is there not a test that can detect EPO? While this proves nothing against any of the other top riders (namely, LA), it sure does hurt the credability of drug tests.

Laggard

I'm starting to question my belief that the big name riders don't dope. There's not a single rider now that is immune from questions about doping. Lance, Jan, Tyler - they're all suspect.

Smoothie104

Synthetic EPO can only be detected if the test is given within 3 days of the injection. So as long as you have 3 days where you will not be tested, you are in the clear. This is why the teams go to remote training camps at altitude prior to the tour.

The team doctor will check you the night before competition, and if your Hematocrit count is over 50.00% then you are given a cutting agent, to lower the percentage count. The morning of the tests, the UCI vampires show up at the hotel. The riders with the lowest count go down first, giving anyone with a higher count another 20 min or so with which to temporarily dilute it.


Also in France at the moment, surprise out of competition tests at home are illegal, so riders are free to do what they want, when they want. As long as you don't do anything stupid, you can keep beating the tests.

There are also several substances which cannot be tested for, and EVERYONE knows this, not just cyclists. WADA has announced that they "may" have a test for detecting abuse of Human Growth Hormone. Which has been undectable for over a decade now. Since some athletes are not sure whether or not this is true, some have started using Equine Growth Hormone, (yes, from race horses) because it is not tested for. The Australian Olympic track cyclists are in the middle of a EGH scandal right now.

They test for Testasterone abuse too, but you are allowed up to a certain percentage natually. Anyone who is lacking, or a little less than the norm is free to boost up to the max. It is easily controlled by the team doctor.

I don't think they can detect Repoxygen, IGF-1, or Actovegin either.

You know the drug manufactures could make this very simple by putting a marker in the drugs, so that it would be easily found. But they know that there is a lot of money to be made when it finds its way into pro sports.

Every now and then, the police or investigators find drugs that are still in clinical trials, and not even approved, yet somehow the athletes have them. The Athletes are always several steps ahead of the testers. It's not until someone screws up and leaves something behind, that these drugs are even added to the banned list, and It's not doping , if you don't get caught, and definatley not doping if the substance is not banned. If it's banned, its a drug, If it's not banned (yet) its a "recovery agent"

Do I believe the drug tests catch cheaters? Not at all.

Do I believe that everyone is a doper? I'm starting to think that way.


Look to the past

Delgado, Thenuisse, Merckx, all tested positive. Are we to believe that Todays pros who came through the same systems are clean? Kelme aside, are the spanish clean? The Dutch? what about the Belgians?

Some former pro's who have come clean and talked about it: Fignon, Argentin, Riis Is Fignon the only french champion who doped? doubtful. Delgado tested positive, but are we to believe that only he and not his number one domestique Indurain was doping? Riis wins one year with 58.6% hematocrit, and teamate Jan Ullrich beats him and takes the win the following year.

Modern big name pro's who have been busted, Pantani (RIP) Garzelli, Frigo, Simoni, Virenque, Daufaux, Millar, Vasseur, Vandebrouke, Mazzolini, Gonzalez de Galdeano, Rumsas, And Rumsas is special, cause he got 3rd in the Tour, and his wife was caught with a trunk full of EPO and HGH etc.... guess who went to jail, his wife!! And he kept racing. He finally tested postive a year later (dumbass)


The list of positives starts to look like the G.C. at the Giro. And since the tests don't catch nearly everyone, how many more are managing to stay under the radar?

Wiretaps, Surviellance, Raids and Searches turn up more info than any drug test.

The sport is perforated with this mess, and I don't believe the UCI is doing all it can. It needs the riders as much as they need it. Case in point. the World Anti Doping Agency, or WADA mandated that all sports have to follow its stirct and rigid antidoping code, in order to be allowed in the olympics. The UCI was the VERY LAST organization to sign. The disagreement was over the length of suspension for athletes who tested positive. WADA demands 6 months mandatory, the UCI was lobbying for 2 maximum. The UCI wanted a lower sentance. Instead of saying "doping is bad, and anyone caught should be banned" their response was "not racing will deny the riders their sole source of making a living". basically stating what the truth really is, that its all about the Money.


The UCI knows that everyone is doped, The majority of them are former racers for Gods sake.
And they hope no one gets caught, If you do, they issue statments about how you have tainted the sport, but then after your suspension, you're on another team and back at it again. Just as the U.S. Olympic Commitee covered up positive tests for U.S. Athletes, I'm sure that the UCI does its best to protect its stars. Unfortunatley, the UCI cannot keep the Police out of the picture.

Laggard

Best post ever, Smoothie. You summed it up perfectly.

55/Rad

Second that on the post Smoothie - great info.

55/Rad

Murrays

While I like the post overall, I found this comment interesting:

Certainly, it wouldn't have anything to do with training, would it?

-murray

kerank

Great response! It brings up a couple of other questions...

Do you think it's possible for one or more of the top riders NOT to be doping if his peers are doping?

Assuming all top level riders are doping, do you think this effects the results? Seems if they are all doping, then the results would be the same as if they were all clean.

Smoothie104

Sure, they ride while they are up there, except Kelme didn't, According to Manzano, everyone was boosted to 56% or more, then the doctors would remove some enriched blood, and then store it for re-injection later.

Also, being at atitude is a good alibi if someone messes up and tests over 50%, Since after 3 days the blood and urine tests will be negative for EPO, you are simply deemed "unfit for competition"

I don't know how much you can hone your form in 3 to 4 days, but I do know you can hone your blood. It takes roughly 11 days for your body to gain any natural performance benefits from being at Altitude.

"legal ways to raise your hematocrit"

https://www.altitudetraining.com/html/livehigh.html

ultimate

what a mess and I cant really see a solution to it either

I suspect there are a few clean riders, you have to admire them whilst ther peers are riding around drug fuelled

SchreiberBike

What stake do the team sponsors have in this? I'd be willing to bet that the US Postal Service has no interest in sponsoring a team associating with doping, and I'd bet that their contract with the team has huge penalties and perhaps other assurances that the riders won't be caught doping. If I were the Postal Service, I would write the contract so that the team directors/owners would lose everything they had if they were participating in doping.

Of course, the USPS is in the process of dropping the team. And if the riders don't think they will get caught, then they would think they are safe from any penalties.

I'd describe my self as pessimistic, but not without hope that the majority of pro riders are at least within the letter of the law.

TrekRider

"Police sources, speaking to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity, said investigators found syringes in Millar's home and he confessed to using doping products.."

If he confessed, he should be out.

jkoman

I go back to the report from last year, something like 150 riders tested in the early spring...a low %, like 3-5% had a high hemotocrit level...near 50. Riders tested again 1 week before the TDF and something like 40% + tested that high. I would love to see some test results that actually show what kind of an improvement can be obtained without drugs. I believe there are some riders that are drug free...I used to believe most were, now I suspect far fewer are. This is a horrible problem for a sport that is losing it's attraction to more Gen X type sports. I find it hard to ask my kids to idolize a drug taker...not what I'm looking for.

plimpington

What about integrity? Does this not factor in at all? I can't see the personal value in winning an event if you doped. Or is there no personal value, anyway? Perhaps it's just a "job" - and if doping means more income, then you dope. If sponsor governments were serious about this, they would REQUIRE pharma companies to tag all agents.

Judd

brent_dube

Well, doping is still a small part in the whole work factor to win a race, so I'm sure there is still a lot of personal value in it.
I could see a rider would be able to dope and not think of it as them cheating to win... that they would still feel they 'earned' and 'deserved' the victory.

Smoothie104

Brent, you make a good point, especially when the riders either know or feel that everyone else is doing it too.

No one gets signed to a contract becuase they are a nice guy, It's all about results, and if you are losing to guys who are doping, you livelihood is in danger. Most of these guys only marketable skill is to endure hours of extreme discomfort. So they have a choice, they dope, or they go back to working in a factory, mill, mine etc...

And I don't believe any pro who says "I've never been around the stuff" or "I've never seen the stuff" It's rampant, and has been for 100 years. Also racing in Europe as an amateur these guys are exposed to it at a very young age. I've got friends who raced as juniors in Europe, and in the Pro-Ams on the Velodrome. And it's the same story. "If you wanna move up, you gotta go see the doctor"

This country is no different, its just different sports. Highschool kids are on steroids and in the weightroom to get bigger so they can make varsity and bang a cheerleader. They havent even thought of the scholarship money, pro contract etc... yet.

All the Power hitter in Baseball are 20 lbs lighter this year after they made drug tests mandatory, Atkins Schmatkins....

The NFL tests player too, and they even let you know 2 weeks in advance when the test is coming. So thats a sham too.

The NFL needs bigger faster players every year to keep the fans happy, and the money rolling in. You've got kids with maybe a highschool education, coming from mainly average to low income households, Pay them hundreds of thousands to millions a year, and promise them even more if they get faster and stronger than the next guy.

Pro cycling is no different.

And we expect them not to dope, when they see everyone else doing it? When they know that those who came before them did? When they see the next generation doing it and coming to take their jobs?

MacMan

It's crazy. It's almost at the point where you say, fine EPO is leagl. Everyone will do it and level the field. Then of course, someone comes along with something to beat EPO ... where does it end? That it has been going on for so long and is so widespread means that for the most part it's never going away.

holicow

I'm waiting to see the arrival of the Tour de Dope.

Nothing is banned! The only limit is your mortality! How fast can you go?

In addition to the overall leader, there will be jerseys for the following categories:

Green Jersey: (think Incredible Hulk) for best use of anabolic steroids
Red Jersey: Highest hematocrit, by whatever means
Blue Jersey: (think Code Blue) for highest blood level of stimulants..

It can be a new "extreme sport". I can't wait.

brent_dube

I think we should remember that if all the riders have to dope, it still isn't necessarily a dangerous practice.
You know, I don't think they are slaves to the drugs, in the way that they have to harm their bodies to get results.

This is because there are million-dollar cyclists out there that I think would retire if the sport was too dirty and unhealthy... instead they keep riding... Armstrong often talks about how he loves the sport. It can't be that bad.

My point is, if they are all using drugs, it still doesn't mean that they necessarily have to harm their body to be competetive. (If that is true, maybe it still isn't right, but it sure is a hell of a lot better than being a race won by whoever is most willing to put their health and life on the line.)

That is also a big reason why I don't think cyclists talk much about it. It's like they're trying to say, "ignore it, let us dope, it isnt so bad... I mean... I've never used performance enhancing substances".

holicow

I couldn't care less if someone is stupid enough to endanger their own health, knowingly. That is their choice. As long as it doesn't hurt others.

I do care when the "playing field" is not level due to use of whatever. You know, I am sorry that everyone is not equally talented, genetically abled, psychologically strong, etc. That's why their are winners and losers, and champions. NOT because of using pharmaceuticals, or whatever you want to call them, used SOLELY to enhance performance. At least it should not be that way. Their is no other possible use, for a cyclist, for EPO, steroids, stimulants, etc.

And since when do all the riders "have to dope?"

brent_dube

So you care if a rider safely uses a drug to contribute to a win, but you don't care if a rider has to harm themselves to get the winning edge?
The question I have is, why should drug use matter if the drug use is safe?
If safe drug use shouldn't be allowed, I don't see why things like altitude tents should be allowed. IV hydration shouldn't be allowed then.

holicow

Why do they "have to"? I don't understand your question. If they choose to, by definition, it is their choice and they deserve the consequences. I sure wouldn't lose sleep over it. It's called personal responsibilty. It may be a little different situation if they are pressured, or forced to use something.


I disagree with iv hydration, unless in an emergency situation, of course. There really is no reason why iv fluid would be any better than drinking fluids, anyway.
I don't see any problem with altitude, but only if you go there. Your body will make the epo in response. Creating an artificial situation seems wrong to me.

I don't see athlete safety as the issue, as I explained above. Integrity, ethics, and sportsmanship are the issues. Throw a bunch of money in the pot, and everything rots.

hair07

i am admittedly pretty unkowledgeable w.r.t. drugs in pro cycling. i know it happens and probably a lot more than most expect, but i don't really know what the different drugs do and all that. my belief on these things(drugs in sports) is that you're never going to get rid of it, so i say let the riders do whatever the hell they want. let them take whatever substances they want. if something will give great results but eventually result in bad health down the line, i'd prefer to let the rider make that decision than some suits in france. i think if everyone is allowed to do what they want, everyone benefits. including the fans. think of the sprints if those guys are on drugs. they'd be absolutely flying. hour records would be like 60+ km on 'eddy merckx' bikes. there are ways to compensate if things get too fast or easy. it would be awesome to go back to 300-400km stages like way back when in the tour.

i guess i think the lines they draw for what's legal and what isn't are capricious and confusing. i think the biggest thing for me though is when some people try to legislate morality for others. saying what's right and what's cheating. i can't stand that. the drugs in the peloton reeks of that to me.

also, does anyone know what the life expectancy of, specifically pro cyclists, generally pro athletes across the board, is? is the profession itself unhealthy(outside of drugs)? is it good for the body to run it to such extremes so often? i keep thinking about tom simpson and when he rode himself to death.