View Poll Results: How does a bicycle steer?
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How does a bicycle steer?
09-03-23, 11:55 AM
#126
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So given that we have established that "countersteer" means something completely different with 2-wheeled vehicles, what term would you (personally) use for that picture?
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09-03-23, 12:05 PM
#127
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I would just call it a standard Speedway sliding/skidding turn. Do they even use a specific terminology for it in Speedway? It’s not as if they turn using any other steering method.
09-03-23, 01:10 PM
#128
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Good point, and I really don't know. It's just that all the talk about 2-wheel vs 4-wheel "countersteer" made me picture that. Heck, I imagine they also use a cycling "countersteer" to initiate the turn as well.
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09-03-23, 01:57 PM
#129
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To the OP, you may find this interesting. It’s an article written by Jobst Brandt back in 1997, primarily about a related question: “What keeps a bicycle upright?” A primary purpose in writing the article was to point out that gyroscopic forces on a bicycle are small, particularly in comparison to steering inputs, so they aren’t the main thing keeping us upright when we ride, though they become relevant when we ride with no hands on the bars, because then we are sensing the gyroscopic forces and adjusting our position to maintain balance.
Anyway, I’ve learned that if I link something, no one reads it, so here is the article, taken today from the sheldonbrown.com website:
”Subject: Gyroscopic Forces
From: Jobst Brandt
Date: September 16, 1997
What keeps the bicycle upright?
The question is often asked and, as often as not, is an introduction to expound on the gyroscopic forces of the rotating wheels that make bicycling possible. This claim is as accurate as the one that authoritatively explains that spokes support the bicycle wheel by hanging the hub from the upper spokes. They don't and it doesn't.
Some who propose the gyroscope theory also explain that the advanced skill of making fast turns on a bicycle involves a technique they call countersteer. In fact, a bicycle cannot be ridden without countersteer, commonly called balance, and it is this balance that is used to keep the bicycle upright, just as one does while walking, running, ice skating or roller skating. To say that the gyroscopic forces of rotating wheels keep the bicycle upright ignores that roller skates are operated the same way and have so little gyroscopic moment that one cannot detect it. On ice skates, the argument fails entirely. Besides, a bicycle can be ridden at less than three miles per hour, at which speeds there is no effective gyroscopic reaction.
Those who ride no-hands sense and make use of the small gyroscopic effect of the front wheel to steer. This, together with trail of the steering geometry, stabilizes steering. Without trail, the bicycle would have poor straight -ahead preference and riding no-hands would be difficult. Many bicyclists never master riding no-hands because the gyroscopic forces are too small for them to detect. Hands on the handlebars completely obscure these forces.
For those who ride no-hands, countersteer should be visible and obvious because the bicycle must be leaned away from the preferred lean angle and direction of a curve so that the turn can be initiated. With hands on the bars, although the opposing lean is unnecessary, countersteer is still needed and can be done without counter-leaning.
That there are gyroscopic forces is evident from the riderless bicycle test in which a bicycle is shoved at a brisk speed (from another bicycle) and allowed to coast on its own. If the initial course is straight, the bicycle will continue this path until it slows to a speed where gyroscopic forces are too small to correct steering. Then the bicycle takes a steep turn as it falls.
Gyroscopic forces are also used to walk a bicycle, holding it by the saddle and steering it to either side by quickly tilting the bicycle. The effect can be observed by resting a road bicycle (with a horizontal top tube) on the shoulder tilted forward just enough to make the front wheel aim straight ahead. Spinning the front wheel by hand forward will make it steer as one expects, left for a left tilt, right for a right tilt, all moves performed in less than a second. With the wheel spinning backward, all responses are reversed.
A good example of a bicycle with no gyroscopic forces is the ski-bob, a "bicycle" with short ski runners in place of wheels. This bicycle, having no rotating parts, is ridden downslope easily by anyone who can ride a bicycle.
Gyroscopic effect of bicycle wheels
Although the gyroscopic effect of its wheels is not what keeps the bicycle upright, as is often claimed, it is essential in riding no-hands, or to walk the bicycle while holding only onto the saddle, as is often done. The belief that leading the bicycle while walking next to it holding onto the saddle is effected by the lean of the bicycle and trail of the front wheel is often mentioned as a mechanism and it seems possible that this is true. However, there are a few effects that make this not the case.
Separating the variables of this effect is difficult unless a good diagnostic method is used. The tests proposed rely on leaning the bicycle near to reality, that is, the bicycle must lean laterally about an axis about as near to the axles of the wheels as it does on the road. This means that hanging the bicycle from high above will cause too much translation to achieve lean. This causes lateral accelerations that interfere with the accuracy of the simulation.
There are three effects that interact when walking the bicycle, hand on saddle only. They are:
Jobst Brandt”
Anyway, I’ve learned that if I link something, no one reads it, so here is the article, taken today from the sheldonbrown.com website:
”Subject: Gyroscopic Forces
From: Jobst Brandt
Date: September 16, 1997
What keeps the bicycle upright?
The question is often asked and, as often as not, is an introduction to expound on the gyroscopic forces of the rotating wheels that make bicycling possible. This claim is as accurate as the one that authoritatively explains that spokes support the bicycle wheel by hanging the hub from the upper spokes. They don't and it doesn't.
Some who propose the gyroscope theory also explain that the advanced skill of making fast turns on a bicycle involves a technique they call countersteer. In fact, a bicycle cannot be ridden without countersteer, commonly called balance, and it is this balance that is used to keep the bicycle upright, just as one does while walking, running, ice skating or roller skating. To say that the gyroscopic forces of rotating wheels keep the bicycle upright ignores that roller skates are operated the same way and have so little gyroscopic moment that one cannot detect it. On ice skates, the argument fails entirely. Besides, a bicycle can be ridden at less than three miles per hour, at which speeds there is no effective gyroscopic reaction.
Those who ride no-hands sense and make use of the small gyroscopic effect of the front wheel to steer. This, together with trail of the steering geometry, stabilizes steering. Without trail, the bicycle would have poor straight -ahead preference and riding no-hands would be difficult. Many bicyclists never master riding no-hands because the gyroscopic forces are too small for them to detect. Hands on the handlebars completely obscure these forces.
For those who ride no-hands, countersteer should be visible and obvious because the bicycle must be leaned away from the preferred lean angle and direction of a curve so that the turn can be initiated. With hands on the bars, although the opposing lean is unnecessary, countersteer is still needed and can be done without counter-leaning.
That there are gyroscopic forces is evident from the riderless bicycle test in which a bicycle is shoved at a brisk speed (from another bicycle) and allowed to coast on its own. If the initial course is straight, the bicycle will continue this path until it slows to a speed where gyroscopic forces are too small to correct steering. Then the bicycle takes a steep turn as it falls.
Gyroscopic forces are also used to walk a bicycle, holding it by the saddle and steering it to either side by quickly tilting the bicycle. The effect can be observed by resting a road bicycle (with a horizontal top tube) on the shoulder tilted forward just enough to make the front wheel aim straight ahead. Spinning the front wheel by hand forward will make it steer as one expects, left for a left tilt, right for a right tilt, all moves performed in less than a second. With the wheel spinning backward, all responses are reversed.
A good example of a bicycle with no gyroscopic forces is the ski-bob, a "bicycle" with short ski runners in place of wheels. This bicycle, having no rotating parts, is ridden downslope easily by anyone who can ride a bicycle.
Gyroscopic effect of bicycle wheels
Although the gyroscopic effect of its wheels is not what keeps the bicycle upright, as is often claimed, it is essential in riding no-hands, or to walk the bicycle while holding only onto the saddle, as is often done. The belief that leading the bicycle while walking next to it holding onto the saddle is effected by the lean of the bicycle and trail of the front wheel is often mentioned as a mechanism and it seems possible that this is true. However, there are a few effects that make this not the case.
Separating the variables of this effect is difficult unless a good diagnostic method is used. The tests proposed rely on leaning the bicycle near to reality, that is, the bicycle must lean laterally about an axis about as near to the axles of the wheels as it does on the road. This means that hanging the bicycle from high above will cause too much translation to achieve lean. This causes lateral accelerations that interfere with the accuracy of the simulation.
There are three effects that interact when walking the bicycle, hand on saddle only. They are:
- Gravitational force of leaning, bearing on the trail of the wheel.
- Inertial force of the center of mass of the wheel and handlebar acting on steering when the bicycle is rapidly tilted.
- Gyroscopic moment about the inclined axis of the fork when the frame is tilted about its horizontal long axis.
- With the bicycle suspended in a vertical plane, tilted just enough forward to make the front wheel stably align straight ahead:
- With the wheel not rotating, the wheel will steer toward the direction of lateral tilt if the tilt is induced in more than a half second. If the tilt is done rapidly, the wheel will steer in the opposite direction before steering to the direction of tilt.
- With the wheel manually spun forward, its steering response becomes faster but behaves largely the same as with the non-rotating wheel.
- With the wheel manually spun backward, steering response to frame tilt is opposite to the direction of tilt when induced in one second or less. The effect diminishes as rotation slows.
- The effect is best observed if the bicycle is tilted back and forth, equally to both sides of vertical in a one-second period. In this mode, steering will nod from side to side, toward the direction of lean if the wheel is spinning forward and opposite to the direction of lean if spinning backward.
Jobst Brandt”
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09-03-23, 03:22 PM
#131
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I thought if it had a motor it wasn't a bicycle ... which makes the example above irrelevant.
09-03-23, 03:31 PM
#132
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Don’t ask, and I won’t tell y’all what’s going on here with 3 wheels:
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09-03-23, 04:02 PM
#133
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Yeah I drifted (pun intended) from the topic a little. It probably depends on local laws, but here it's a bicycle with or without a motor as long as it has pedals that can propel it. Of course, my example still doesn't meet that definition.
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09-04-23, 03:35 AM
#134
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To the OP, you may find this interesting. It’s an article written by Jobst Brandt back in 1997, primarily about a related question: “What keeps a bicycle upright?” A primary purpose in writing the article was to point out that gyroscopic forces on a bicycle are small, particularly in comparison to steering inputs, so they aren’t the main thing keeping us upright when we ride, though they become relevant when we ride with no hands on the bars, because then we are sensing the gyroscopic forces and adjusting our position to maintain balance.
Anyway, I’ve learned that if I link something, no one reads it, so here is the article, taken today from the sheldonbrown.com website:
”Subject: Gyroscopic Forces
From: Jobst Brandt
Date: September 16, 1997
What keeps the bicycle upright?
The question is often asked and, as often as not, is an introduction to expound on the gyroscopic forces of the rotating wheels that make bicycling possible. This claim is as accurate as the one that authoritatively explains that spokes support the bicycle wheel by hanging the hub from the upper spokes. They don't and it doesn't.
Some who propose the gyroscope theory also explain that the advanced skill of making fast turns on a bicycle involves a technique they call countersteer. In fact, a bicycle cannot be ridden without countersteer, commonly called balance, and it is this balance that is used to keep the bicycle upright, just as one does while walking, running, ice skating or roller skating. To say that the gyroscopic forces of rotating wheels keep the bicycle upright ignores that roller skates are operated the same way and have so little gyroscopic moment that one cannot detect it. On ice skates, the argument fails entirely. Besides, a bicycle can be ridden at less than three miles per hour, at which speeds there is no effective gyroscopic reaction.
Those who ride no-hands sense and make use of the small gyroscopic effect of the front wheel to steer. This, together with trail of the steering geometry, stabilizes steering. Without trail, the bicycle would have poor straight -ahead preference and riding no-hands would be difficult. Many bicyclists never master riding no-hands because the gyroscopic forces are too small for them to detect. Hands on the handlebars completely obscure these forces.
For those who ride no-hands, countersteer should be visible and obvious because the bicycle must be leaned away from the preferred lean angle and direction of a curve so that the turn can be initiated. With hands on the bars, although the opposing lean is unnecessary, countersteer is still needed and can be done without counter-leaning.
That there are gyroscopic forces is evident from the riderless bicycle test in which a bicycle is shoved at a brisk speed (from another bicycle) and allowed to coast on its own. If the initial course is straight, the bicycle will continue this path until it slows to a speed where gyroscopic forces are too small to correct steering. Then the bicycle takes a steep turn as it falls.
Gyroscopic forces are also used to walk a bicycle, holding it by the saddle and steering it to either side by quickly tilting the bicycle. The effect can be observed by resting a road bicycle (with a horizontal top tube) on the shoulder tilted forward just enough to make the front wheel aim straight ahead. Spinning the front wheel by hand forward will make it steer as one expects, left for a left tilt, right for a right tilt, all moves performed in less than a second. With the wheel spinning backward, all responses are reversed.
A good example of a bicycle with no gyroscopic forces is the ski-bob, a "bicycle" with short ski runners in place of wheels. This bicycle, having no rotating parts, is ridden downslope easily by anyone who can ride a bicycle.
Gyroscopic effect of bicycle wheels
Although the gyroscopic effect of its wheels is not what keeps the bicycle upright, as is often claimed, it is essential in riding no-hands, or to walk the bicycle while holding only onto the saddle, as is often done. The belief that leading the bicycle while walking next to it holding onto the saddle is effected by the lean of the bicycle and trail of the front wheel is often mentioned as a mechanism and it seems possible that this is true. However, there are a few effects that make this not the case.
Separating the variables of this effect is difficult unless a good diagnostic method is used. The tests proposed rely on leaning the bicycle near to reality, that is, the bicycle must lean laterally about an axis about as near to the axles of the wheels as it does on the road. This means that hanging the bicycle from high above will cause too much translation to achieve lean. This causes lateral accelerations that interfere with the accuracy of the simulation.
There are three effects that interact when walking the bicycle, hand on saddle only. They are:
Jobst Brandt”
Anyway, I’ve learned that if I link something, no one reads it, so here is the article, taken today from the sheldonbrown.com website:
”Subject: Gyroscopic Forces
From: Jobst Brandt
Date: September 16, 1997
What keeps the bicycle upright?
The question is often asked and, as often as not, is an introduction to expound on the gyroscopic forces of the rotating wheels that make bicycling possible. This claim is as accurate as the one that authoritatively explains that spokes support the bicycle wheel by hanging the hub from the upper spokes. They don't and it doesn't.
Some who propose the gyroscope theory also explain that the advanced skill of making fast turns on a bicycle involves a technique they call countersteer. In fact, a bicycle cannot be ridden without countersteer, commonly called balance, and it is this balance that is used to keep the bicycle upright, just as one does while walking, running, ice skating or roller skating. To say that the gyroscopic forces of rotating wheels keep the bicycle upright ignores that roller skates are operated the same way and have so little gyroscopic moment that one cannot detect it. On ice skates, the argument fails entirely. Besides, a bicycle can be ridden at less than three miles per hour, at which speeds there is no effective gyroscopic reaction.
Those who ride no-hands sense and make use of the small gyroscopic effect of the front wheel to steer. This, together with trail of the steering geometry, stabilizes steering. Without trail, the bicycle would have poor straight -ahead preference and riding no-hands would be difficult. Many bicyclists never master riding no-hands because the gyroscopic forces are too small for them to detect. Hands on the handlebars completely obscure these forces.
For those who ride no-hands, countersteer should be visible and obvious because the bicycle must be leaned away from the preferred lean angle and direction of a curve so that the turn can be initiated. With hands on the bars, although the opposing lean is unnecessary, countersteer is still needed and can be done without counter-leaning.
That there are gyroscopic forces is evident from the riderless bicycle test in which a bicycle is shoved at a brisk speed (from another bicycle) and allowed to coast on its own. If the initial course is straight, the bicycle will continue this path until it slows to a speed where gyroscopic forces are too small to correct steering. Then the bicycle takes a steep turn as it falls.
Gyroscopic forces are also used to walk a bicycle, holding it by the saddle and steering it to either side by quickly tilting the bicycle. The effect can be observed by resting a road bicycle (with a horizontal top tube) on the shoulder tilted forward just enough to make the front wheel aim straight ahead. Spinning the front wheel by hand forward will make it steer as one expects, left for a left tilt, right for a right tilt, all moves performed in less than a second. With the wheel spinning backward, all responses are reversed.
A good example of a bicycle with no gyroscopic forces is the ski-bob, a "bicycle" with short ski runners in place of wheels. This bicycle, having no rotating parts, is ridden downslope easily by anyone who can ride a bicycle.
Gyroscopic effect of bicycle wheels
Although the gyroscopic effect of its wheels is not what keeps the bicycle upright, as is often claimed, it is essential in riding no-hands, or to walk the bicycle while holding only onto the saddle, as is often done. The belief that leading the bicycle while walking next to it holding onto the saddle is effected by the lean of the bicycle and trail of the front wheel is often mentioned as a mechanism and it seems possible that this is true. However, there are a few effects that make this not the case.
Separating the variables of this effect is difficult unless a good diagnostic method is used. The tests proposed rely on leaning the bicycle near to reality, that is, the bicycle must lean laterally about an axis about as near to the axles of the wheels as it does on the road. This means that hanging the bicycle from high above will cause too much translation to achieve lean. This causes lateral accelerations that interfere with the accuracy of the simulation.
There are three effects that interact when walking the bicycle, hand on saddle only. They are:
- Gravitational force of leaning, bearing on the trail of the wheel.
- Inertial force of the center of mass of the wheel and handlebar acting on steering when the bicycle is rapidly tilted.
- Gyroscopic moment about the inclined axis of the fork when the frame is tilted about its horizontal long axis.
- With the bicycle suspended in a vertical plane, tilted just enough forward to make the front wheel stably align straight ahead:
- With the wheel not rotating, the wheel will steer toward the direction of lateral tilt if the tilt is induced in more than a half second. If the tilt is done rapidly, the wheel will steer in the opposite direction before steering to the direction of tilt.
- With the wheel manually spun forward, its steering response becomes faster but behaves largely the same as with the non-rotating wheel.
- With the wheel manually spun backward, steering response to frame tilt is opposite to the direction of tilt when induced in one second or less. The effect diminishes as rotation slows.
- The effect is best observed if the bicycle is tilted back and forth, equally to both sides of vertical in a one-second period. In this mode, steering will nod from side to side, toward the direction of lean if the wheel is spinning forward and opposite to the direction of lean if spinning backward.
Jobst Brandt”
https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1...lf%2Dstability.
Also this fun video includes a bike with tiny wheels that balances fine by itself. Go to 9:00 in the video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_con...ature=emb_logo
09-04-23, 02:23 PM
#135
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Countersteer to initiate a turn, which leans bike in direction you want to turn.
Steer into the lean to keep from falling over while turning.
steer further into the turn to straighten bike upright and end the turn.
Steer into the lean to keep from falling over while turning.
steer further into the turn to straighten bike upright and end the turn.
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09-05-23, 01:43 PM
#138
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Unless the people who agree more or less with the "accepted" theory can steer less well or better ... pretty much moot, eh?
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09-05-23, 02:01 PM
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I mostly agree with this, except it is actually overstating the very minimal effects of gyroscopic forces. In more recent years there have been several studies to demonstrate that gyroscopic effects are not required for riderless balance,
https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1...lf%2Dstability.
Also this fun video includes a bike with tiny wheels that balances fine by itself. Go to 9:00 in the video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_con...ature=emb_logo
https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1...lf%2Dstability.
Also this fun video includes a bike with tiny wheels that balances fine by itself. Go to 9:00 in the video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_con...ature=emb_logo
Otto
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09-05-23, 04:38 PM
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09-05-23, 04:49 PM
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Yeah, he was very astute and a good writer, but he didn’t have the benefit of these later experiments and demonstrations. Anyway, I appreciated his comment that equates countersteering and balance. It’s something we constantly and reflexively do to ride a bike and keep it upright.
Otto
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09-05-23, 05:18 PM
#143
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Real answer----the question is meaningless. Bicycles are inanimate objects and do Nothing ... they certainly do not "steer."
Rephrased question: How does one steer a bicycle?
Instinctively.
Go home, scientists, lawyers, and bloviators in general. You are not needed here. It is as easy as riding a bike.
Rephrased question: How does one steer a bicycle?
Instinctively.
Go home, scientists, lawyers, and bloviators in general. You are not needed here. It is as easy as riding a bike.
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