carpediemracing 

For me it was the other guy's fault.

However....

That's sort of like not avoiding a car that's veering out of his lane and about to hit you. The car may hit you, the car is at fault, but bottom line is you still got hit and have to deal with whatever happens because of the hit. Better not to get hit even if the other car is veering into your lane.

If you were on the drops, if you were focused on the riding (not taking a drink or adjusting shorts or whatever), then a simple, "Hey." would probably have kept him from moving over. Don't say "Left" or "Right" because that can be misinterpreted as "I'm on your left" or "Move to your left", opposite direction stuff. Also riders will sometimes look, that could cause them to turn the bar a bit, and it may swerve them into you even harder (looking left often causes a rider to pull left). A vague "Hey." should work. Not yelled, hence the period, I usually murmur or just state it - quiet enough that the helmet cam won't pick it up. Or some other non-directional warning like "Up" or "Watch it" or "Dude" etc.

Also, if you were focused, you probably could have moved over a touch. One of these instinctive "just stay parallel, just stay parallel" (said like Dory, "just keep swimming, just keep swimming"). The rider next to you moves a bit you move a bit less but you move.

I don't subscribe to bars in front. I subscribe to when my rear wheel is in front of their head. If I'm fighting for a wheel and the guy's bars are next to my knees or even ankles, it doesn't give me the right to move over into him. In fact I often move away a bit because such a rider, to me, is risking more than I'm willing to risk. I'll drop back a bit, usually onto his wheel, and just take the wheel back when I need to. Taking wheels is ALWAYS easier than holding a wheel.

But if he's not even next to my cranks then I can move over at least about a foot, which is his margin if he's behind my pedals but overlapping my rear wheel. If he's overlapped in that space I could be bumping the rider to that side and he'll still have a solid foot wide path. If you have two riders side by side and bumping there's a lot of room between their rear wheels.

Me taking a wheel back after losing it on purpose. I let the wheel go instead of fighting for it, for a few reasons. First, I want to avoid the conflict, it's way too early for fighting for a wheel. Second, I know I can get the wheel back in 10 or 15 seconds if I want to. Third, I want him to think I'm on Shovel's wheel because I'm opportunistic, not because Shovel is helping me, and by giving up the wheel sort of easily it makes it seem like I'm just surfing wheels near the front.


In the video below go to 13:50 or so, @shovelhd just rolls up on my right. I ride to Shovel's left to "hold" Shovel's wheel (not directly on his wheel, since that opens me up to immediately get sawed off Shovel's wheel). At about 14:20 yellow/black rider is trying hard to take Shovel's wheel. By 14:28 or so I'm trying to figure out my next move since I don't want to fight for a wheel for another 2 minutes. I don't want to get entangled in a minor battle, get bogged down tactically. If I meet resistance in one spot then I move around. Closer to the finish the harder the resistance has to be, but with more than a lap left to race I might as well have a million years tactically. I'm already eyeing the right because I know people will surge/spread on the main straight. At around 14:32 I decide to go to the right, which I do by 14:36 or so, as riders surge/spread as predicted.

By 15:36 Shovel is back, I get on his wheel, I have to stay behind him instead of to one side because both pace and the pack being tight. I do battle a bit for the wheel again (with Orange/white, who I pass to get on Shovel's wheel). but now with just 2 turns to go I am a little less willing to give up the wheel. Orange tries the left after the right curve, I move a bit left which broadcasts my intent that I want to be on Shovel's wheel, he goes right and quickly moves up on my right side, almost catching me out, but when I defend again he realizes that I'm determined to hold the wheel. I'm pretty sure that at that point he decided he'll use me as the leadout.

If the battle had gone a bit more aggressive then I'd have backed off, let him take Shovel's wheel, then yelled at Shovel to go really early, probably as soon as we took the second last left (the next turn). It would have put Orange in the wind a bit too early, make him hesitate, and give me better speed difference when I jumped. I knew I could go the length of the final straight in the wind so I wasn't worried that the sprint would be too long. I was also confident I could get around Orange even if Shovel did a massive leadout and made it to the final straight, so for me it was a not a bad place to be.

Video:

Video of finish at the line. You can see orange/white, I think he might have been caught out by Shovel's acceleration. I throttled back pretty hard once I saw I had a gap, in case someone had their afterburners in reserve. I wanted to catch Kyle but he was too far.

Radish_legs

Race #9 C crit (4/5)
I was late to this crit. Didn't have time to hit the restroom before it, was putting my gloves on seconds before the start. No warmup at all. I played it smart conserving my energy all throughout the race. I didn't play the last lap very well. Had to expend some energy moving up the field in the last lap in the wind. And then got boxed out in the sprint when the guy whom I had been marking the entire race moved over to the far right (he's in the red kit). So I ended up 5th, which is my worst performance in a bunch sprint for this C crit. But live to fight another day rather than trying to make a dangerous pass.


Race #10 B-crit (3/4)
So after the above C crit, I didn't have all my crap together. Needed another bottle, etc. In process of going to my vehicle and going to the restroom (right next to the start). I missed the start. Heard the whistle while I was in the john. I tried to catch on, but gave up after a lap and a half. And after that it was just practice. Had a teammate help me at the end. Had a terrible last 1.5 laps when I got behind the wrong wheel. I thought the guy in the black kit would move up, not drop anchor. I had seen him be somewhat aggressive in a prior race. Big mistake. So I had to burn some matches moving up again after my teammate had helped me. If you don't consider that I was a lap down, I finished 10th. So I kinda screwed myself by doing that C crit when I should have just gotten ready for the B crit.

himespau 

Well now you've done 10 races and would have been eligible to move up to Cat4 if you hadn't gotten the early upgrade. Do you feel you've learned something? Were you ready?

globecanvas

Sorry you had a discombobulated day. It happens to everyone once in a while.

FWIW it's poor form to contest the finish if you are a lap down on the field. It's specifically against the rules for a sanctioned race, and at every training race I've ever done they warn the newbies not to do it if they miss the start or get dropped and want to jump back in on the next lap for training. Maybe this specific race has some policy allowing it but that's not something I've ever heard of.

Radish_legs

So my 10 races include 3 "B crits" i.e. (cat 3/4). I've enjoyed those a lot, and if you don't count my bathroom break lap-down, I was top 10 in all 3.


I think I was indeed ready for an upgrade after 4 races. There's still a lot I haven't done and still need to learn and work on. Like I've never been in a successful breakaway. I still need to understand how to sprint (very complicated in the fine details).


I've mentioned this before, the twice a week group ride I did in the months prior to racing, that had many Cat 3s and Cat 4s, and the occasional Cat 1 or 2. That really prepared me for racing. Watching @carpediemracing videos helped me understand how to position myself. TrainerRoad's interviews of the Clif Bar crit racing team helped as well. I'm still putting it altogether. Plus having a fitness level where it's not lack of fitness that is causing me to lose, has been huge.

Radish_legs

They have never discussed this, probably because it is so rare. And they didn't say anything to me.


Contesting the finish is a relative term. Watch the end of this race and tell me what the finish looks like.

Costco hot dogs

It's still bad practice if you didn't take a free lap for a mechanical or wheel-in-wheel-out if it's available, regardless of whether the USAC folks noticed you jumping in a lap down. Kinda pretty much not cool. FWIW. But, judging by your posts so far on BF, rules are made to be broken, eh? There's prestige on the line, apparently.

In other words, if I saw someone jump in a lap down because potty break and try to contest the finish, I'd probably speak to the RD to seek a DQ, and at the least, a verbal warning.

Knowing the USAC rules of racing is your responsibility - it's implicit when you toe the line. Playing ignorance isn't a good avenue for positive racing and places undue burden on the USAC judges. You do realize a lot of USAC folks do the typical weekday series stuff as volunteers, right?

caloso

Yeah, don't do that. If you've missed the start, didn't chase on, or the officials didn't give you a free lap, you're now just riding a training ride.

Radish_legs

What am I supposed to do? They saw the race start without me. They saw me chase after them. They saw me roll through in front of them barely going. I thought about stopping to talk to them. I'm supposed to just ride by myself. Sorry guys, that's MORE dangerous to everyone. Should I just pull myself? I'm there to learn to race. It's a weeknight crit. I guess the thing I did wrong was go too fast at the end? Just not put in an effort on the last part of the race and I'm okay? Carpe in his blog says if you aren't in the group, just go home. Or ride a trainer on the sidelines. Getting back in the group is what he suggests doing. But you've got to be the very last guy in the group? As it was, I was near the very back of the group most of the race. I told my teammate I was a lap down. And he was telling me to let him take me to the front (although to be fair, I think her forgot that I was a lap down in the heat of the battle).

And if you actually read the rules, it says that in road races or circuit races lapped riders may not "interfere" with the finishing sprint. However the crit rules read differently. Here they are in their entirety:

So yeah. After reading the rules I don't think I did anything wrong. Anyway I was way behind the finishing sprint.

There's nothing there about finishing sprints for lapped riders in crits.

PepeM

It says you may be permitted to stay in the race, which you were. It also says you'll finish during the same lap, meaning you won't need to do one more lap once the leaders finish. It says you'll be placed based on how many laps you are down and what position you come in compared to others on the same lap. That means you could sprint against other lapped riders to get a better finishing position (although I am sure most would find this ridiculous, unless we're talking of a small group lapping the field.) There is no rule saying 'thou shalt not sprint,' but getting in the way of people actually fighting for a position is not a very nice thing to do. I won't bother watching the video, but I think you can judge for yourself whether what you did was right or wrong. In that situation, I would personally just roll in at the back of the pack.

Radish_legs

I was a spectator at a circuit race. The officials (actually I think they might have been the same ones for this crit). They SPECIFICALLY said if you are lapped you can get back in the group, but you need to be in the back and not animate the race in anyway.

I haven't heard those instructions once in a weeknight crit. And in almost every crit I do there are riders off the back all over the course.

The situation probably rarely arises. Guys that are off the back are not in the group because they can't hang in the group. When the group come around again, they still can't stay in the group. Much less stay in the group in the last lap.

A scenario that very well could occur is a crash in the middle of a crit. You go down. You're not hurt. You get back on your bike. But there is no way you can catch the group. Your bike is fine. Do you get a free lap? The rules state that if it's a "mishap" you may be granted a lap. How do you know? Do you talk to the officials in the middle of the race and explain the crash? Or do you assume that you or may not be granted a free lap, but you'll keep racing. Do you just sit on the back, for fear you might be doing the wrong thing?

Radish_legs

So perhaps ridiculous. Perhaps not nice. But within the rules.

hammer down

It was a guy in his 10th race ever at a weeknight crit. Wasn't prepared, got a lap down, rode around for the experience and half heartedly rode faster at the end. Lets not act like he disrupted the queen stage of the Giro.

Radish_legs

Thank you. I'm just trying to have fun. It's not like I did something terrible like pee on Jeff Lebowski's rug.

But I am curious about what to do in a similar situation in the future. I get in a crash, I get up, I'm now a lap down, I keep racing. Right? After the race the officials decide if I get a free lap, right?

hack

In a real race, you crash, you go to the pit, official puts you back in the race and you race. Same for a flat.

In a real race, you get stuck behind a crash, but don't go down, you're chasing. If the pack comes around you'll most likely get told to leave the course before you get caught.

In a real race if you fall off the pace and get dropped, you'll likely get told to leave the course.

Radish_legs

so in a practice crit where they don't pull you and you're mainly there for the experience, just keep racing? If I had finished top 3 but a lap down, maybe they would have chewed me out, I don't know. But they certainly knew I was a lap down because they placed me 29th. Plus we all have chips, the laps and times are all counted.

Doge

I noticed in many collegiate races riders get lapped multiple times and are not pulled. Then I learned that omnium points go down 50 places sometimes. And to some schools - the school points matter. At nationals they pulled riders at half a lap behind. So...it depends.

In general be safe first, then follow what the chief referee enforces. It may not be in the rules.

aaronmcd

I almost never see a race where dropped riders are allowed to continue. If I'm dropped I'll ride hard a couple laps just because, and pull myself. The only times I've seen dropped riders allowed to remain are (1) cat 5 training crits and (2) ocassionally a small, non technical p12 crit that gets blown to shreds by the wind and it isn't clear if that group is the field or dropped, or if that other group is the break or the main pack.

If I was dropped and allowed to stay for some reason I would definitely not pull, bridge, attack, chase, or sprint. I'd do nothing that might affect the real race.

ruudlaff

The only thing I truly get from this thread is that Radish_legs seems to want validated quite a lot. Every time someone mentions something you shouldn't have done you seem to get really defensive. I only even say because there will be a lot of guys on here who have forgotten more knowledge than you or I combined know. There will come a day when you need that knowledge.

globecanvas

This doesn't need to be so contentious. The rules are not as clear on this as I thought they were, but the norms are totally clear. Just listen to what we're all telling you, we're not making it up in order to give you a hard time. (Some people are giving you a hard time, but please do hear the message.)

It looked like you had a good kick at the end of the race and passed some guys. If the race paid out 10 places, the 10th place guy you passed would have been upset. Consider what would have happened if you had managed to catch up with the 3rd place guy and he sat up long enough for you and somebody else to pass him. It's not fair to the other riders to mess up their finish and that is the reason for the norm.


If you show up late at a training race, rejoin the pack a lap down, race with them, sit up for the finish and roll in with the pack or behind it. This is not rare. I've seen it happen this season.

@shovelhd, are you still around?

globecanvas

There is a very well defined norm for this situation. If you didn't actually crash but just got blocked by a crash and lost contact, then you have to chase. If you crashed, you go immediately to the pit official (or start/finish if there is no pit) and explain what happened. The official will then decide whether you can get a free lap and rejoin the pack the next time they go past. What you absolutely don't do is just hang out where you crashed and wait for the pack to come by and jump in -- that is straight up cheating.

globecanvas

One more point -- yes, it's a training crit, but it is a USAC sanctioned event (I looked up your race). It's not playground basketball. If you got called out by other racers or by the officials, would you be arguing with them?

Wylde06

Any time ive been dropped in a crit (which was the majority of the races I did the first two years I raced) and was allowed to rejoin I just hang out in the back, both in training races and regular races. It just makes sense not to contest anything. At that point its just training

Costco hot dogs

Yep!


Keep in mind there's a significant amount of subjectivity left to the discretion of the race officials when it comes to dealing with OTB riders or a lapped field. What might be OK-ish in a training race might not go over too well in a race with a $1000 purse or upgrade points running out 8 places.


You've got good results in 10 races, however, your ability to plead ignorance lessens when the race officials have seen you at the pointy end of the races for weeks on end.

Radish_legs

You guys still aren't clear on this...let's say that I'm behind a crash. I try to chase on, and I am unsuccessful. The group of us behind are not pulled and end up back in the pack as lapped riders. Can I help my teammate? Can I pull him to the front with 2 laps to go? Am I allowed to impact the race? Can I pull on the front to help bring back a break with 5 laps to go?

In the B-race that I linked, there with a half lap to go, I seriously thought about going to the front and chasing the break. Just for the experience of it, thinking that my results didn't matter at all. Not to help a teammate and not to "cheat". If had done that, I would have seriously impacted the race. But I doubt anyone would have said anything.