The more I search for a new lugged road frame, the better a Waterford looks
07-01-15, 06:24 AM
#27
pan y agua
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Waterford is a standup Company. I had a Schwinn Paramount OS, frame where the seat tube failed, post Schwinn bankruptcy.
Even though, they had no legal obligation to fix the bike, Waterford replaced the tube, and refinished the frame, with a beautiful factory finish and original decals.
The only charge was $50 to fix a dent on a chainstay from a crash.
Even though, they had no legal obligation to fix the bike, Waterford replaced the tube, and refinished the frame, with a beautiful factory finish and original decals.
The only charge was $50 to fix a dent on a chainstay from a crash.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
07-01-15, 07:53 AM
#28
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All this talk about fine steel bikes is making me feel even better about my Guru Sidero.
07-05-15, 08:57 PM
#29
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You can't go wrong with a Waterford. Classy bikes, and they look great too.
I have a Cinelli Supercorsa, which is easily the best bike I ever rode, but I would put a Waterford right next to it any day.
The price you will forget, the ride quality will be with you every minute you are on the bike.
I have a Cinelli Supercorsa, which is easily the best bike I ever rode, but I would put a Waterford right next to it any day.
The price you will forget, the ride quality will be with you every minute you are on the bike.
07-06-15, 07:50 AM
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No doubt you cannot go wrong with a Waterford, but given where you are I would give Roland Della Santa a call. He is a master maker of steel frames and you get all the custom features you want. On the west coast there are some fine choices for custom steel frames, but if I wanted the type of bike you are looking at, then Roland would be the top of my list.
Della Santa custom built frames
Della Santa custom built frames
11-22-17, 09:50 AM
#31
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I'm planning to get a Waterford sport touring frame and thought I would revive this thread to ask some questions about frame materials. The 14-Series is OS2 TIG welded, and the 22-series has OS tubes and lugset. Any opinions on the 14 versus the 22 - are the lugs on the 22 mostly about appearance or do they have functional value compared to the 14-series? Also, there are options to upgrade parts of the frame to stainless, e.g., the brake bridge, the bottom bracket, the seat and chain stays, etc. Are there some parts of the frame that are especially worthwhile to upgrade to stainless for functional reasons? I'll ask the same questions of the bike fitter, but thought I might get some good advice from others who have experience with the Waterford frames. Thanks.
11-22-17, 04:17 PM
#32
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I'm planning to get a Waterford sport touring frame and thought I would revive this thread to ask some questions about frame materials. The 14-Series is OS2 TIG welded, and the 22-series has OS tubes and lugset. Any opinions on the 14 versus the 22 - are the lugs on the 22 mostly about appearance or do they have functional value compared to the 14-series? Also, there are options to upgrade parts of the frame to stainless, e.g., the brake bridge, the bottom bracket, the seat and chain stays, etc. Are there some parts of the frame that are especially worthwhile to upgrade to stainless for functional reasons? I'll ask the same questions of the bike fitter, but thought I might get some good advice from others who have experience with the Waterford frames. Thanks.
11-22-17, 06:08 PM
#33
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I honestly don't know, but it sounds to me like the stainless is being used only decoratively. Simpler these days than chrome plating which has environmental issues. Personally if I were getting a steel bike right now, it would be Reynolds 953, the best stainless there is. Probably from Mercian. Lightest tube set with phenomenal strength for the weight. Never a worry about corrosion. You can paint what parts of it you wish.
11-23-17, 08:14 PM
#34
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I'm planning to get a Waterford sport touring frame and thought I would revive this thread to ask some questions about frame materials. The 14-Series is OS2 TIG welded, and the 22-series has OS tubes and lugset. Any opinions on the 14 versus the 22 - are the lugs on the 22 mostly about appearance or do they have functional value compared to the 14-series? Also, there are options to upgrade parts of the frame to stainless, e.g., the brake bridge, the bottom bracket, the seat and chain stays, etc. Are there some parts of the frame that are especially worthwhile to upgrade to stainless for functional reasons? I'll ask the same questions of the bike fitter, but thought I might get some good advice from others who have experience with the Waterford frames. Thanks.
Stainless - All in all doesn't add much in terms of function. Some higher end older and current steel bikes have stainless dropouts, as the paint tends to chip from removing and installing wheels over and over again. You will also see older steel bikes with chromed driveside chainstays so that you don't have to worry about paint chips from chain slap. A nice little feature, but by no means necessary or that important.
Personally I would get a bike with a nice light heat-treated steel tubeset and not worry about stainless. It's quite a bit more expensive and is a pain in the ass to work with for the builder.
11-23-17, 09:01 PM
#35
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I couldn't agree more. Maybe next spring I will call them and convince them to build me my dream bike. They're going to think I'm nuts, but Boulder wouldn't build it for me, so hopefully Waterford will.
11-24-17, 12:14 AM
#36
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Now that air-hardening tubes are the backbone of Waterford's tubing palette, the advantage of lugs over TIG welding aren't as clear as they were before they were available. Air-hardening steels actually get stronger by the joint after welding, meaning that these frames don't need as much weight at the tube ends as they did with traditional chromoly. Air hardening steels now have nearly a decade of development under them. We're on our fourth and fifth generations of production tubes. As a result, we've been able to explore possibilities that were heretofore unavailable wall thickness, dimensions and shapes.The undeniable advantage of TIG welding is the flexibility of design compared to lugs. Lugs require costly tooling. With the accelerating shifts in geometry - particularly to the increasing trend toward sloped top tube bikes, lug fit-up is increasingly difficult and TIG welding is the only practical joining technique. Air-Hardening tubes are replaceable, something ill-advised for thin-wall chromoly. Lug construction still has the advantage of easier alignment, resulting in a straighter frame and better alignment.
edit: I just found this discussion (link) from 2004 of 853 versus True Temper OX. I expect they are all produce very similar rides but I'm still interested in learning more about the technology.
Last edited by GailT; 11-24-17 at 12:23 AM.
11-24-17, 07:28 AM
#37
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since lugs are sleeves, then like-for-like it adds more weight. not substantially so... but then again in road bicycling, some people literally count grams.
but since steel adds to the weight anyway, were i to buy a new steel bike, especially a high-end one, it would certainly be lugged for aesthetic appeal
12-19-17, 07:33 AM
#38
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I have a 1999 Waterford 2200 and it's still my go to bike after all these years. It's been through Rides Across Georgia and gave me a firm ride without being too harsh for long rides but on local rides it lets me put all my energy to the ground when I sprint.
I picked up an aluminum Felt with carbon fork and it was a great bike but not enough to hang on to it. The Waterford is still here.
Ridden a few carbons and Being an F1 racing fan the technology is amazing but not enough to replace the Waterford.
Watched a British cycling show on Prime this week from the GCN (global cycling network). 3 of the shows covered them making a steel frame and another doing a review of steel vs. other materials. Good viewing.
I picked up an aluminum Felt with carbon fork and it was a great bike but not enough to hang on to it. The Waterford is still here.
Ridden a few carbons and Being an F1 racing fan the technology is amazing but not enough to replace the Waterford.
Watched a British cycling show on Prime this week from the GCN (global cycling network). 3 of the shows covered them making a steel frame and another doing a review of steel vs. other materials. Good viewing.
12-20-17, 09:48 AM
#40
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Look up Mike Terraferma from Miami. I actually have met the guy at his shop and his lugged frames are beautiful. For around $1,800 these frames look terrific and you won't give up a thing to a Waterford.
12-20-17, 01:32 PM
#41
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Look at small makers. I've got a Tallerico. Only the bb is brazed but I'm certain he makes them with lugs throughout.
It's hands down the best riding bike I've owned. He's bounced his business between San Diego and Moab. Absolutely excellent work.
Mine is a 2001 with Chorus and a steel fork. I just got it this year. It's 20lbs. I raced for a long time on "high end" bikes that had nothing but a weight advantage over this one.
It's hands down the best riding bike I've owned. He's bounced his business between San Diego and Moab. Absolutely excellent work.
Mine is a 2001 with Chorus and a steel fork. I just got it this year. It's 20lbs. I raced for a long time on "high end" bikes that had nothing but a weight advantage over this one.
12-20-17, 03:01 PM
#42
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I honestly don't know, but it sounds to me like the stainless is being used only decoratively. Simpler these days than chrome plating which has environmental issues. Personally if I were getting a steel bike right now, it would be Reynolds 953, the best stainless there is. Probably from Mercian. Lightest tube set with phenomenal strength for the weight. Never a worry about corrosion. You can paint what parts of it you wish.
Have been looking for a 55 or 56 cm Road Frame to set up with a New Shamino 6800 Group, and in all honesty I think there is no going wring with a Waterford 22 Series with Steel Fork.
My reasoning is.
I get custom measurements.
I get to choose some geometry to soften the ride.
The company is in the USA, so should there be a problem, there should be some way to actually get service.
Choice of color, decals, head badges, etc.
Deliever would be 8-9 weeks.
Price seem not too bad.
Am I forgetting something?
My reasoning is.
I get custom measurements.
I get to choose some geometry to soften the ride.
The company is in the USA, so should there be a problem, there should be some way to actually get service.
Choice of color, decals, head badges, etc.
Deliever would be 8-9 weeks.
Price seem not too bad.
Am I forgetting something?
I also have a Gunnar Crosshairs that was made with a custom geometry option for about $1400. The whole bike, originally a 105 bike but since upgraded to eTap, came in at around $2500 (a few years ago) - not something I could touch custom geometry in at that price point with standard off the shelf bikes.
Something else to look at is Habanero Cycles. I have been contemplating a custom geometry disc brake bike. Ti would be lighter than steel so this would likely be my choice there.
J.
12-20-17, 03:12 PM
#43
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Expensive but beautiful. A friend has one. I'd do it in a second if money was no object. Maybe my next last bike.
12-20-17, 03:14 PM
#44
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I have a custom stainless frame from Anderson Custom Bicycles. It's not painted and so any scratch or ding in the finish is super easy to take care of unlike a painted frame.
Waterford, and even more so Gunnar (same company), are a very good value in frames. Gunnar is a cheaper version. Waterford is sort of the artisan version with fancy lugged frames, fancy finishes etc... The low end of Waterford is just a few hundred dollars more than the top end custom geometry of Gunnar.
I also have a Gunnar Crosshairs that was made with a custom geometry option for about $1400. The whole bike, originally a 105 bike but since upgraded to eTap, came in at around $2500 (a few years ago) - not something I could touch custom geometry in at that price point with standard off the shelf bikes.
Something else to look at is Habanero Cycles. I have been contemplating a custom geometry disc brake bike. Ti would be lighter than steel so this would likely be my choice there.
J.
Waterford, and even more so Gunnar (same company), are a very good value in frames. Gunnar is a cheaper version. Waterford is sort of the artisan version with fancy lugged frames, fancy finishes etc... The low end of Waterford is just a few hundred dollars more than the top end custom geometry of Gunnar.
I also have a Gunnar Crosshairs that was made with a custom geometry option for about $1400. The whole bike, originally a 105 bike but since upgraded to eTap, came in at around $2500 (a few years ago) - not something I could touch custom geometry in at that price point with standard off the shelf bikes.
Something else to look at is Habanero Cycles. I have been contemplating a custom geometry disc brake bike. Ti would be lighter than steel so this would likely be my choice there.
J.
12-20-17, 03:25 PM
#45
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12-20-17, 03:35 PM
#46
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They do. They have a custom order form online.
12-20-17, 03:54 PM
#47
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My opinions:
1. If you're considering going high end steel, consider Ti. Ti terrific stuff and slightly cheaper than something like 953.
2. I understand wanting brazed/lugged, but air hardening stuff like 853 is really good. There are lots of great deals out there on 853 frames.
3. Do you really need custom? Why? There are lots of options on stock geometry, surely one will work. In terms of sizing, get the effective top tube length close and adjust the rest through stem length, bars and seatpost.
1. If you're considering going high end steel, consider Ti. Ti terrific stuff and slightly cheaper than something like 953.
2. I understand wanting brazed/lugged, but air hardening stuff like 853 is really good. There are lots of great deals out there on 853 frames.
3. Do you really need custom? Why? There are lots of options on stock geometry, surely one will work. In terms of sizing, get the effective top tube length close and adjust the rest through stem length, bars and seatpost.
12-20-17, 04:38 PM
#48
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Worst nice bike I ever had, Litespeed Vortex. Was 14lb 15 oz. Fit me perfectly and rode like ****.
Ti is good for rock climbing in Thailand and the Cayman Islands, forget about it for a bike frame.
Ti is good for rock climbing in Thailand and the Cayman Islands, forget about it for a bike frame.
12-20-17, 05:32 PM
#49
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Thanks - I missed that. I'll take another go at it. I have this gravel bike I want to build and a bare metal finish is perfect for the application. Ti is also perfect because almost all of the forks I want to use are tapered steer tubes which adds a fair bit of weight in steel. Ti is enough lighter that it ought to hold the weight where it is or lighter and still get the geometry out of it that I know I need.
J.
J.
12-20-17, 08:21 PM
#50
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Pedalino
Last edited by chaadster; 12-20-17 at 08:25 PM.