rumrunn6

was wondering the other night, riding in 30 degrees, at what temp will a regular water bottle freeze up after only 30 minutes of riding? I'm guessing 17 degrees

cyccommute 

It depends on a number of factors: the amount of water in the bottle, whether the bottle is sitting still or being shaken, how you define "freezing up", local water quality, etc.

All parts of the bottle aren't equal. A partially full bottle is going to splash water on the valve and it will freeze to the point where you can't get it to flow. (I'm talking traditional water bottle here. Camelbak bottles might not freeze the valve as quickly because of the structure of the valve.) If you can't use it, I would consider that to be frozen. Same thing if you have a shell of frozen water around a core of liquid water.

If the bottle is only partially full, it will freeze faster than a full bottle...less mass of water freezes faster. If the water is mixing, it will probably freeze a little faster than water that is static. Ice can insulate a little so water in a static bottle will take longer to freeze all the way through than if you are mixing the cold outer layers with the warmer inner bulk of water...it's called heat transport.

And, finally, there is a some impact on the freezing point if the water contains dissolved salts. Those actually lower the freezing point slightly so that the water takes a little longer to freeze. The impact of the dissolved salts is going to be minimal, however. At best, it will be tenths of a degree.

And before you start adding stuff to the water to depress the freezing point, be aware that it takes a bucket load of what every you want to put into it to keep it from freezing...depending on how low you want to go. Alcohol will work but you'd have to have enough in there to give you a massive hangover before it would depress the freezing point significantly. You'd also need more as the temperature drops. Salt will work also but, again, you'd need enough to make it either unpalatable or dangerous to drink or both. Same with sugar.

Basically, you can't adulterate water to get it to a suitable freezing point to keep it from freezing without causing other problem. It's better to insulate it and/or carry a larger mass of it so that it doesn't freeze as quickly. I use a Camelbak with an insulated tube for just that reason.

rumrunn6

thanks Doc! yeah I was referring to the point at which one can't drink from the bottle, so, frozen mouth valves & slush in the bottle ...

LesterOfPuppets

In 20 below, I had to take little sips every 5 minutes to keep it drinkable for a while, it eventually froze up cuz I didn't do it frequently enough

FrozenK

Keep the bottle upside down.

GadgetGirlIL

My 66 mile ride last Friday started with the temperature at 17 degrees. Was 23 degrees at mile 18. 28 degrees at the halfway point and then 31 degrees at the end. My 2 bottles never froze. But I had Tailwind mixed into both of them.

Leebo

Gatorade slushies for the win ! But at 7F for 1.5 hours it freezes solid.

rumrunn6

rumrunn6

seriously? that's brilliant. the mouthpiece should be protected by the downtube I guess

rumrunn6

tempting! commonly found? buy online?

LesterOfPuppets

I don't recall ever having trouble above 20°

LesterOfPuppets

I rode 5-7 days a week all winter in Wyoming. I always dreaded that it might warm up too much on my days off, as I didn't want any chance of the trails turning to mud.

cyccommute 

Notice that the temperature was increasing during your ride. I doubt, based on the nutritional information (0.3g sodium and 25g of sugar) of the that the Tailwind, that it depresses the freezing point much. Water by itself would probably give similar results. If the temperature would have been steady, I doubt that it would have stayed liquid as long.

GadgetGirlIL

You can buy it online. I get mine at my local running store as I want to support an independent merchant.

GadgetGirlIL

I concur about the rising temperature. I do mix 2 scoops into my 26 oz water bottle. But I have successfully made Tailwind slush when I've done runs in colder weather

Honestly, I was surprised that it didn't freeze up as it was really darn cold last Friday with the wind! My toes certainly were very cold which has led me to order winter cycling shoes and thicker wool socks.

rumrunn6

think I remember that photo! beautiful except if there's wind!

FrozenK

I have a frame bag, so bottle stays there. Or I use a Revelate Feedbag. But yes, keeping a bottle upside down will help with frost forming on the mouthpiece. I guess it'd be harder to do with a regular bottle cage.

dmanthree

I use two insulated bottles for long rides. Fill one with warm water, the other with HOT water. Drink the warm one first...

jefnvk

No guarantees that will work: https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/mystery-solved-why-hot-water-freezes-faster-than-cold

rumrunn6

if the 2nd one is really insulated they can both be the same temp to start. daughter gave me a Corkcicle

dmanthree

I can absolutely guarantee that if you start with hot water in an insulated bottle it will freeze slower than starting with cold water in the same bottle under the same conditions. That article has nothing to do with cycling water bottles.

wphamilton

I've tried to test the effect, in a freezer, and I have to admit that I could not make hot water freeze faster than cold. If there is some way that it works, it's an edge case.

FWIW I believe that there exists a temperature range where: if the water in the bottle is constantly sloshed around it will delay the formation of ice, but it will all freeze at once. So I would try filling the bottle only partially, and keeping it upside down as someone suggested. It also occurs to me than having a tube extending to the bottle center would make it more likely for liquid water to be available, but you'd need two nozzles or some other way to disengage it.

Aren't insulated bottles available?

wipekitty

Apparently, there is a real need for someone who is not me to create a cycling-friendly bottle that will hold hot beverages and allow easy access while riding. The bottles that keep beverages hot, from what I've seen, are designed for taking coffee to work or sitting at a campsite, and are difficult to navigate while riding a bike...

Related thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/general-c...ter-rides.html

dmanthree

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...hat-hot-water/

wphamilton

Interesting. The first thing that comes to mind given those requirements is insulate the bottle holder instead of the bottle.