Joe Remi

Yeah, I'm obviously referring to my steel M6L, which is never going to be 19 pounds unless I actually turn it into a 2-speed titanium model, which would be silly..I would just buy the titanium model.

In relation to the actual conversation we're actually having, which is steel folders that start under $2k, my bike is never going to be 19 pounds short of replacing the whole bike. But thanks for the lecture, sport.

linberl

Actually, I buy them at Nordstrom and tailoring is included! If I'm going to pay a pretty penny I anticipate a degree of service. Now I buy jeans and don't get free tailoring and they aren't expensive but they're not "one size fits all" - they come in different lengths.

Btw, I checked out the lightest 2 speed brompton I could buy - ready made - and it was 21 lbs and a few ounces. That was the superlight titanium model at a little over 2 grand. But it was only 2 speeds...add in gearing and the weight goes up even on the titanium models. Can you spend aftermarket to lighten it - sure - making it a 3 grand bike. You really can't compare the weight a single speed with a geared bike. Compare apples to apples - you can get a pakiT single speed at 13.6 lbs!!! It's 15 lbs if you don't pay for carbon drivetrain.

For less than 2 grand I'll have an 18.96 pound 8 speed inclusive of saddle and pedals. The pakiT looks a LOT cuter when I think about that. And I think the components are better as I'm upgrading to velocity rims and velocity race hubs, 105 brakes, etc. You've actually made me feel better about the pakiT, so thanks.

Joe Remi

Linberl, I don't have any particular interest in the Pakit, but I think it looks cool. It's a nice bike.

linberl

I'm a little concerned about whether it will ride even more twitchy than a 20" but I got used to that so...
If the little tires can handle big potholes and wide cracks, I will probably like it just fine.
I like more rounded lines and it is rather angular, but I can adjust my perception - much like how I though 20" bikes
looked funny at first.
And when I finally get my shareroller, I'll have a 23.5 lb e-bike when I want it!

Joe Remi

I've owned a bunch of 20-inchers and two 16. The smaller wheel is slightly noticeable for about a week, then you get used to it. All folders I've ridden handle more like each other than anything with big wheels; I think if you're comfortable with 20" you'll be fine with 16".

berlinonaut

That's great! I think the Packit is clearly a clever and great bike. For Europeans not so much as there are basically no dealerships over here and no possibilities to try one as well as BFs are really rare and Packits basically non existent. And the price is massive - with shipping, customs and import-duties you'll end up on a very steep level, far, far higher than what you pay in the US. But I've test ridden a friend's Pocket Lama once and know a couple of people owning 20" BFs that are all happy with their bikes. Still I personally would possibly prefer the Tikit over the Packit but that's no longer an option anyway.

badmother

You are comparing apples and Elephants madam! Do you really expect the same fit oportunitys from a B you can fold and hide in any small corner with a 622 wheled bike? Also with the situation you describe is more about the dealers than the bikes. It is more than possible to have the B fit you if you trust the peopel who do it. You trust the BF peopel so why not the B peopel? becouse they are foreigners ?

Also I want to remind you that it is you who keep comming back to the Brompton, not us. We just chime in and try to help.

Short trousers is what annoys me, since I have the opposite "problem" of what you have (oh yes and peopel who do not do theyr own sewing also annoy me but I guess I should not say that or you`ll all be on my neck).

linberl

Ok first of all it's not that I "trust" bike friday and don't trust brompton...bf uses non-proprietary part and I, with my somewhat limited mechanical skills, can swap out pretty much anything on the bike at very reasonable cost. Making fit changes on a bf is the same as making fit changes on any road bike; i know exactly what the effect will be BEFORE I do it. Yes, brompton parts can be swapped out as well, but (1) it's not as simple, (2) many parts are proprietary and/or limited, (3) the parts are often very expensive because of the limited sources, (4) it's more difficult to anticipate the effect of the changes. You're on the other side of the pond, as I recall, so maybe the cost and dealerships, etc., are not such an issue. Here there are 2 dealers on my side of the Bay and neither is knowledgeable about any kind of alternative fitment. As for being foreign-made (can't tell if you were kidding or not), I have happily owned an italian road bike and a couple of peugeot in my life. Traditional bikes that worked with standard parts.

I keep coming back to how the brompton looks not how it works or rides. I have given up on making it work for me. I'm not quite 70 yet but maybe when I'm pushing 80 I will be okay riding straight upright and then the brompton fit won't be an issue . You might have been the person who mentioned the older ones were shorter - if one of those came up on CL in my area, I might buy it to tinker and see what happens. I could ride over on my pakiT and strap it to my travoy to bring it home

linberl

I've kind of been keeping my eye out for a small tikit but all i've seen is large ones on resale. Never rode one but, yes, it would definitely be an option. Not willing to give BF nearly $4k to produce one for me as a one-off though. I guess brompton's are probably lot cheaper if you get them "over there". Here, a 2 speed lightweight is over 2 grand.

As I said to badmother, while I intend this to be my last bike purchase, maybe when I get way more old and decrepit, I will enjoy an upright riding position and can reconsider the brompton. If I rode upright, it would fit me okay just by rotating the bars a bit. Hehe....something to look forward to about getting older, lol.

desastar

I too like the look of the Brompton, but not so much riding it. The front end feels too nervous and the gaps in the gears are way too large. The Tikit run rings around it except for the fold. However if you need to wheel the bikes for any distance, the Tikit does it better. Don't really get the Pakit, the Tikit is so much more a complete bike, and the hyperfold is unbeatable.
I have a Brompton in raw laquer that sits in the cupboard and I can't bring myself to sell it.

linberl

Raw lacquer is soooo pretty, I can see why, lol. I'm thinking there has to be a way to stabilize the front fork on the pakiT so you can roll on one tire. There's a guy who has a video showing he's done it but he just nudges the tire in place. I'm thinking a velcro cable tie or a little plastic clip could do it. I think the Tikit is very cool but they are not as easy for BF to produce in quantity, and they are heavier. If the pakiT can roll, somehow, it would be a nice combination of the two.

linberl

Ok, order placed. velocity wheels and race hubs, kojak tires. sugino cranks. shimano 105 caliper brakes super SLR with shimano bl550 levers. sram pc 870 chain and 11-28 cog set. the only part I didn't change out (but will after I get the bike) is the claris rear der. Bike comes in under 19.5 with saddle/pedals for a medium frame and I take a small frame so there will be an unspecified amount of weight savings. I'm super excited - they had a free expedited delivery coupon - so I will get if by mid-Dec. Merry me =).

Thanks to everyone (seriously) for all the input and conversation. You made me think and evaluate carefully.

tdonline

Congratulations! Trust me, I'm excited about your order too

linberl

The wait will give me time to work on how to make it roll. My most recent idea is to see if there's a way to repurpose the dahon magnet set - one on the front fork and one ?. Will have to see how it lines up in the small frame. Might even work if I just use a carefully sized tether between the two and stick one on the fork and other somewhere else - I just need to keep the front fork from flopping and it will roll on that one wheel just fine, I believe.

linberl

Thanks.
I'm so lame, I couldn't decide and was making myself crazy, so I just went with orange again to stop spinning my "wheels" lol. I'm very happy with all the upgrades I made, for 2k I've got myself an under 19 lbs bike with saddle/pedals and 8 speeds. Now I just have to wait.....aaargh.
Interesting thing when I was out riding the brompton to get a feel for 16" tires...the dealer (tried a new one more than an hour away) helped me nail down the issue which is the s bar is the right height but too far away which made it too low. He mentioned there is something called an Evo S bar kit which would put a riser bar on the bike without screwing up the fold so, while the reach would stlll long, it would put the bars higher. but not as high as the M, which was too high. His suggestion was that I look for a used 2 speed, which he said is common because people think it will be okay but then realize they need more gears, and he could give me a quote on doing the Evo thing. Riding the bike was interesting enough that, if I come across one pretty cheap that's maybe an older model but still functioning, it might be worth playing with it. Even a single speed would work. After I got done messing with it, I could put it back to regular and give to my adult son; that kind of motivates me to go there. He'd love it. And I can't hand down my BF's to him because he's almost 6 feet. But no more bikes until I sell my NWT and spend some time just enjoying the pakiT.

Joe Remi

Congrats, I can't wait to see pics! Btw, you're going to be shocked at how well the Claris mech works, and it's not bad looking either. I betcha the cost of a lighter derailleur that you never bother to change it ;-)

badmother

Orange bikes rock. It is the only place I like orange but if I was rich I`d buy an orange black edition and hang it on the wall just to look at it

I am happy you finaly found a B dealer that know what they are talking about so you could get a proper impression of what your options are. If I was in your situation and if you later look into a second hand B I would look into altering the stem instead of adding stuff to the bike. The right person could do it without having the bike present, it can be done to the stem alone and the stem could be added to the bike after it is done. Peopel change out stems fairly often so they can be found on e-bay or the person doing the job could maybe have a spare one. Keep your stock stem that came with the bike and your son can use that one.

Personally I am thinking of buying a TI stem for my B next time. After changng out the rear triangle on my B recently I was suprised it was so light so I do not think I`ll buy a TI rear triangle unless I want one for a wider OLD. I think the frame and the stem contains more steel so it makes more sense to change them ut. Also they should be cheaper pr gram becouse of less labour costs producing them than the rear triangle (I would think). Fork also would make sense for the same reason plus I would think the positive effects of TI in a bike would be more noticable in the front becouse the suspension block would take care of the vibrations in the back. A TI rear triangle would make sense for those who ride in salt and slush to avoid rust.

Looking forwards to hearing how you feel about folding and unfolding the bike several times a day. I am sure the fold is great.

linberl

Funny - the test brompton I rode was a titanium version in orange and black!!! Very pretty. And the dealer made me squirm because he offered it to me at $1900 (2016 model but new). However, it was still 2.6 pounds heavier than my pakiT and only a 2 speed. I would def not get a regular B, even used, too heavy. I tried one while there and it didn't ride differently but was much heavier to lift.
The dealer told me changing to an "m" stem wouldn't solve my problem - he said the stem is much lower than the s stem. He said the length drop would not only remove any benefit from it being closer but make my reach problems worse. His suggestion with the Evo kit (which is very inexpensive) would add 2 inches which is what I need, and I could angle the bars slightly as well; I'm in-between the s and m almost precisely. He also said because he would be putting new cables on, he could move the brakes for me (small hands, too, so I had to way over rotate my wrists to pull the brakes on the test model).

I spent some time folding the pakiT that I test rode. The rear is the same as the brompton. On the brommie you flip the little plastic lever and lift, on the pakit you push the little button and lift. The difference is the front side. On the brommie you do some twiddly things, shift the wheel and drop the bars. On the pakiT, you've already done the wheel shift when you put the rear end under, so you pop off the stem and drop it on the frame lock. From the reviews I've read, folding the pakiT is faster by a few seconds, so negligible difference to me.

I'm curious why brompton doesn't have quick releases instead of the twiddly things - I thought they were a pain and took unnecessary time and effort when a qr would take one second? Also, I don't have the strongest hands so qr are better for me because I can put some body weight behind it.

Being in San Francisco, I'm willing to bet I will find a lightweight 2 speed brommie when I'm ready, maybe even in orange - because some millenials will buy them thinking they can handle the hills with the "cool" 2 speed and find out they're wrong, lol. Next summer I'll start looking at CL again...the more I think about fixing one up for my son as a surprise, the more excited I get about it. Edited to add: thought about it over night and I'm totally getting one to fix up for him. It will fit in the closet in his studio (regular bike taking up space in the apt.) and give him options to ride where he's worried about leaving his bike locked up.

linberl

Haha, you may end up being right, so I'm not taking that bet! I may just wear it out and then swap as part of a normal drivetrain change. I usually replace my cogs, chainring, once a year (around 6000 miles).

Now I have to decide on pedals. All the removable ones weigh too much. I want to keep the pedal weight under 250 grams. Looking at velo orange touring pedals which are very nice and light. Hard to anticipate whether I will want/need to fold or remove them in daily use, so I am going to just put my regular grip kings on and ride like that at first. The grip kings aren't light but I'll be able to figure out whether I can go with the non-removable velo's that way.

If I need to be able to remove them, then I have to find some super light nice ones that don't break the bank. And that are grippy but don't have those pin things that eat your legs.

If I can't find what I need in the 250 gram range and have to go with ezy superiors which are more in the 350 range, I have the option of removing the chain bash guard (which is 100 grams). BF actually suggested I skip it in the build but I hate getting my pant caught (and it happens even with a wide pant strap sometimes). If I wore lycra tights it wouldn't be an issue but that is so NOT me.

Any super lightweight pedal recs?

fietsbob

I vote for MKS Sylvan touring , they are a copy of the internals of traditional Campag pedals ,
they even copied the dust cap and wrench spline around the edge of the cap..

I have the MKS' Dust caps on my Venerable Campag BMX pedals.., (now on my 'Season' Tikit)

MKS has a similar looking BMX pedal U shaped plate, instead of 2 flat ones..

Prime version has polished races .. smooth! https://www.mkspedal.com/?q=en/product/node/89





...

linberl

Do you find with the Tikit that you want to pull the left side pedal off when you fold and go places? When I get my pakiT, I will have to see if the pedal gets in the way of strapping it to the travoy or if I can rotate the crank so it's not in the way. The velo orange touring is quite a bit lighter than the MKS but same size and shape, they have very good reviews. If I go non-removable I think they are the lightest ones I can afford. I've seen some AEST pedals that are very light, but reviews are inconsistent.

fietsbob

Not where I am its fold was disabled simply with a tie strap around 2 frame parts so like my 1st, Mk2 Brommy, it won't fold every time Ilift it.

(only had it the Tikit, a few months.. parked, folded, at home, now.. use the hub dynamo bike for the dark time..)

my Brompton left pedal folds to not jab you in the hip when carrying it, the rest of the bike folds to the right side.. right pedal does not fold..

this is a new version, SYLVAN TOURING NEXT Ezy Superior | MIKASHIMA INDUSTRIAL CO,.LTD yes the QR mech adds weight..
sealed cartridge life time bearings. I favor things that work really well even if they weigh a bit more..


you can get a self bushing plastic pedal that is pretty light and cheap, plastic being lighter than metal..

Brompton does offer the non folding left pedal too. it is pretty light a mix of plastic, aluminum sides with reflectors, and steel bearings/axle.




At LBS we/they stock plastic pedals for the BMX kids that use the concrete skateboard bowl ..
bowl surface is preserved at the sacrifice of the pedal, rather than the other way around.. they're just $10 a pair..




....

mlau

Hey Linberyl,

How do you like your Pakit?

I'm thinking of either getting a Pakit or a Brompton if I can hit my target weight by the end of the year.
Since I have a comfy full sized frame, I was thinking of selling off my Xootr Swift (but always keeping a folder).

-Matt

linberl

I absolutely LOVE my pakiT. I do fold it a lot but have realized I don't need to always fold it FULLY - for example, I just fold the rear triangle under and lock it when I pop it in the grocery cart. I don't bother with removing the stem. Total fold time 5 seconds max. I do fold fully for restaurants. I pop the rear triangle under but do not lock it with the seat mast and roll it whenever I don't want to carry it; no problems. Riding quality is everything you expect from Bike Friday - I just recently added the titanium seat mast and it seems to be absorbing bumps and smoothing out the ride even more. Since I have a Burley Travoy I don't need to worry about the lack of cargo ability of the pakiT, I can just attach my trailer when I need to carry a big load of stuff. Also, it fits me perfectly which was an issue I had with the Brompton (which might have been resolved with after market stuff but who knows and it's a pricey risk). I was able to customize every component so the build is exactly what I wanted. Did I mention I absolutely LOVE my pakiT? I would buy it again in a heartbeat.

lwylie

linberl, thank you for starting this thread, asking the questions you did, and sharing your feedback on your Pakit. And thanks to everyone else on the thread who offered advice and anecdotes. I too am considering a Pakit and found this thread's content very helpful.

linberl, I wanted to reach out to you for more info on a couple things but as a new forum member w/ <10 posts I'm not able to PM you (originally found this thread via Google). If you're open to sharing more info perhaps you could PM me from your end.

For one thing, this thread opened my eyes to the possibility of putting a cover over the chain drive train to minimize dirt/grease when packing, taking the bike inside, etc. I didn't know such covers existed! Linberl mentioned a Camelbak.... is that a hydration pack cover repurposed to put over the bike? Couldn't find a bike-specific cover by that brand name using Google. If it's not too much of a PITA to keep a cover handy (like in a seatpost bag) and use when needed, that could reduce a main disadvantage of a chain vs belt.

I realize this is an old thread, hope it's not too late to extend a bit more :-) BTW I live in Portland, OR and my only bike (for now) is a Bike Friday NWT, which I love. I plan to retire soon and want a lighter weight bike with a quicker fold for urban adventures.