ddeand 

I picked up a frameset today at the local bike swap for a build I want to do for my Grandson. He will shortly outgrow the 58cm Miyata I built for him earlier. The frame I got should be good for him since he'll likely grow a couple more inches. The frame was advertised as a custom, handmade build, and there's nothing that would lead me to believe any differently. But I'm not sure what I actually have in terms of quality, age, expectations. That's why I'm asking for help. Here's what I know:

• Steel frame (of course) with pretty nice welds (check the dropout welds)
• Looks like moderate touring geometry with wheels on it
• English thread bottom bracket
• Campy headset
• Shimano dropouts with eyelets
• 126mm spacing in the back drops
• 27.2mm seat post
• A local builder and a local shop owner indicated that the tubing might be Columbus of some sort
• Steerer tube feels like it has ridges on the inside
• Seat tube doesn't appear to be grooved or ridged
• Stamping on BB says "Armbruster" and "4 20 85" (I'm assuming that's the build date)
• Two pump pegs (top tube and seat tube)
• two sets of bottle cage brazeons
• Brake cable guides on top of top tube

I've attached a bunch of pics of the frame. I have no expectation of finding out who built this, but I would like to know what the overall quality of the bike might be (Good, Bad, Ugly)? Then I can determine what level of components shouold go on the bike. I will strip the frame and fork and repaint or powdercoat it - we'll see what the grandson wants for color. Any help identifying the quality (or lack thereof) of the frame is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

ddeand 

More Pics of the frame.











Thanks again!

3speedslow

I would definitely put this in the quality frame pile. Lucky Grandson! Never seen two frame pump location choices before.

Kabuki12

I have never seen two frame pump pegs on a frame . I guess the top tube one would be used if there was a water bottle mounted to the seat tube. It looks like a quality built frame , the vertical rear drops makes it easier to mount the rear wheel. Anything else about this is a mystery to me. I would like to see it built up. Joe

Mad Honk 

The parts look right for an '85 make. I am going to venture a Columbus tubing set and built by a low volume shop. I would suspect it is going to ride a bit quick from looking at the geometry. When you look at the steerer tube it should have the Columbus dove on it. That would tell you it is a higher end build. Smiles, MH

Doug Fattic 

That frame is made with Henry James Investment cast lugs and bottom bracket shell. A set of those costs around $150 so that puts it well into the above average custom category. The fork crown is also investment cast. I couldn't see well enough from the pictures if the indent on the chain stays matched the indents Columbus used to do. Some of the frame finishing details are not as well done as a master builder would do. The "gate" on the seat binder would be filed off and the area where the dropouts attaches to the blades and stays could be much better done. However overall it appears to be superior to some kind of production made frame. I would suspect this frame was made by a beginning builder or a one or two man shop perhaps trying to make a modestly priced custom frame. The head angle looks the picture to be really steep compared to the seat angle.

ddeand 

Thanks for the help, so far!

A couple more pics. The bike builder first looked at the chain stay indents and he and the other shop owner agreed that the indents looked like Columbus. The steerer does not have a dove, so I'm not sure what it is. The numbers that are stamped on the BB are also stamped on the steerer tube. When I set the bike up with wheels, the head angle, while still steep, was not as severe as pictured previously. Total weight of the frame and fork is 6.1 lbs.

P!N20

Chainstay crimps were usually done by the frame builder, weren’t they?

Not all Columbus forks have a dove.

ddeand 

Here’s a shot of the steerer innards.

thumpism 

Rifled steerer would be SPX, wouldn't it?

himespau 

Cool frame.

Wildwood 

Same fork crown (i believe) as one of my '82 bikes; but a serial of 4 20 85 might be April 20th, 1985?. (edit: implying USA nomenclature?)

Pump pegs on 2 different tubes sounds a custom feature (or French) to me.
I buy into the 'small builder' theory.
(

machinist42

How many ridges, and do they spiral? See this thread?

Doug Fattic 

The picture showing the chain stay dent and the underside of the fork crown identify the tubing as Columbus. The newer picture of the entire frame with wheels attached shows it has a more normal geometry than I 1st suspected. The Henry James lugs almost certainly point to it being built in America. That means it was probably made in small one man shop. I'm guessing that the owner requested 2 pump pegs because he usually only used one water bottle and then would put the pump along the seat tube but on hot days might want 2 water bottles and then would put the pump under the top tube (because that makes it more inconvenient to carry).

non-fixie 

Nice frame! And there have been days I wished I had been carrying a second pump that actually worked ...

francophile 

I would just add, the SLX Razesa with very similar fork to yours I sold to @NHmtb two weeks ago has a Tange fork with the spiraling rifles as you show on the inner crown of yours. The steer tube clearly had "TANGE" stamped into it, though. I didn't remember to get a count. Maybe I have some pics somewhere...

ddeand 

Thank you all for the info and comments. I had hoped this was a workable frame for my project. My thinking right now is to build the bike up with at least a Shimano 105 level group. I won’t be able to get to the refinishing until things warm up here in Minnesota. My grandson is very appreciative of the bikes I build for him (his younger brother will get his Miyata 312). He is a cancer survivor (at age 12) and has developed a very nice outlook on life. On the one hand, he is a typical hormone-driven 15- year old, but he also really enjoys hanging and riding with his granddad. As I work through this build, I’ll keep you all posted. Again, thanks for the help!

obrentharris 

I’ll be the possible wet blanket here.
When dealing with a frame of unknown provenance it would be prudent to build it up with whatever components you have on hand so that you can see how it rides before sinking much time and money into paint, components, etc.
A frame from someone who may have only built a handful of frames is especially suspect simply because there is no body of work on which to base judgement. The best frame components and finish work in the world won’t make up for poor design.
It may ride like a dream, but better to find out as early as possible in the process.
Brent

ddeand 

Actually, that’s a good idea - you’re not being a wet blanket, though. I have the parts to do a basic setup (one brake, no derailleurs) - just the crankset, wheels, pedals, seat. Then I can get it out for a few minutes on a clear, dry day to see if it will be satisfactory. I already have the parts for a build, so that’s not an issue. But a test run is a good idea. Thanks.

merziac

Can we assume the lads are learning the craft as well?

Lads, tools and skills is a beautiful thing, especially by Grandads hand.

unworthy1

Isn't that a Hitachi logo near the edge of the BB shell? Sometimes that indicates a Takahashi brand shell (although Hitachi was the caster) but never heard that Henry James (Hank Folsom) used Hitachi to cast those products: "All Henry James BB shells are proudly made in the USA." says the website

Doug Fattic 

I was wrong it is not a Henry James Bottom bracket shell. I have seen some investment cast lugs made in Taiwan (I assume) that were similar to Henry James lugs. I do believe that those are real Henry James lugs. The frame was likely made in the midwest and it was very common in the 80's for everyone around here to use HJ lugs. They came in different angles that made building a frame easier without the need to blacksmith them to fit the chosen design.

Last ride 76 

SLX, SPX, SL, and SP all had rifled steering tubes. Need to examine tubes at the BB for rifling to rule in either SLX or SPX.
I also believe that some Japanese tubing used helical reinforcements on some steering tubes, but perhaps fewer, or more and slightly wider and flatter, IIRC.

ddeand 

This Serotta on Facebook has some of the exact characteristics as the frame I have, although the BB stampings and guides are different. But most of the lugs and the fork look similar.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace.../?ref=feed_rhc
At this point, I'm almost done stripping the frame, and it's looking pretty good. Once I get the frame totally stripped, I'll post some pics. I have to wait for warmer weather so I can get out in the garage to do the stripping (it was 21degrees today but maybe up to 40 by Sunday). I'll be airbrushing the touchups on my Centurion Ironman project, and if that works I'll airbrush this bike - otherwise, I'll just hook up the paint sprayer to the compressor and have at it. Here's the ugly duckling: