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Shared Scooters and E-bikes

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Shared Scooters and E-bikes

Old 10-25-19, 09:56 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
You seem to exclude "wheel chair types" so would you also exclude people that need a motor assist bike or trike so they can get out of the house?
Yes, that is a given. Even throttles, if that is what it takes for a person to ride a bike, they should be allowed to ride that bike anywhere a regular bicycle can go...
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Old 11-03-19, 08:35 AM
  #27  
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So what is the difference between some E-bikes or scooters on the MUP, and a gaggle of "real cyclist" wanna be racer boys riding over 25 MPH????
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Old 11-03-19, 09:01 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
So what is the difference between some E-bikes or scooters on the MUP, and a gaggle of "real cyclist" wanna be racer boys riding over 25 MPH????
Quantity?

E-bikes for the masses has the potential to unleash the hordes of human kind upon us at 25 mph.
Cyclists using leg power that can do those speeds for any length of time are much fewer in number.

As a former motorcyclist, I see no problem with Ebikes myself as long as they follow the usual traffic rules and are considerate of others on the path/road. Oh wait . . . that's rare for anyone driving any vehicle.
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Old 11-03-19, 10:05 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by FiftySix
Quantity?

E-bikes for the masses has the potential to unleash the hordes of human kind upon us at 25 mph.
Cyclists using leg power that can do those speeds for any length of time are much fewer in number.

As a former motorcyclist, I see no problem with Ebikes myself as long as they follow the usual traffic rules and are considerate of others on the path/road. Oh wait . . . that's rare for anyone driving any vehicle.
Exactly... When all you needs do is push a throttle... Well it's not going to be the same low numbers, as anybody can do that...
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Old 11-03-19, 03:11 PM
  #30  
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We have both in my city from Uber and e-scooters from Lime. It is annoying when the scooters are placed at the bicycle rack since they are not bicycles, and are not locked to the rack. I pick them up and set them aside when I need a spot. Even though the e-scooter all have stenciled on them, "do not ride on sidewalk", the renters ride them on the sidewalk, often at a high speed.

I no longer use the word "e-bike" anymore. They are electric mopeds and IMO should be treated the same as a moped.
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Old 11-03-19, 07:13 PM
  #31  
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[QUOTE=SactoDoug;21192914]We have both in my city from Uber and e-scooters from Lime. It is annoying when the scooters are placed at the bicycle rack since they are not bicycles, and are not locked to the rack. I pick them up and set them aside when I need a spot. Even though the e-scooter all have stenciled on them, "do not ride on sidewalk", the renters ride them on the sidewalk, often at a high speed.

I no longer use the word "e-bike" anymore. They are electric mopeds and IMO should be treated the same as a moped.[/QUOTE]

Yes, if you do not need to pedal them, they are mopeds... it's as simple as that, and they should require a licence and insurance... JMO...
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Old 11-04-19, 10:39 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr
The "problem" IMO, starts when a motorised bike starts to be used on sidewalks and trails, where only bicycle's are allowed... It's as simple as that. Anything with a throttle is a motorised vehicle, IMO, (not talking about a wheelchair type). E-Assist bikes, have no throttle and must be pedalled, thus the legal definition is that they are still bicycles and can be used anywhere a bicycle is allowed... Then along comes the E-Bike with a throttle and... People are using these motorised bikes under the guise of "it's a bicycle" cause it has pedals, which are hardly, if ever used, at least not the ones I see around here...

EDIT; In other words, even regular bicycles could be banned from trails and sidewalks where they are allowed today, as a way to deal with said motorized bikes..
See my reply # 14
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Old 11-04-19, 12:43 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
I already share the hiker biker trails with walkers, runners, people with baby carriages, bikes, trikes, roller skaters, skate boards, electric bikes, electric trikes, and people with dogs. So what is one more type of device going to matter?
All those modes of travel are human powered, even the E-Bikes E-trikes are "supposed to be human" powered with "some assistance" as far as I know... Scoters are mopeds and nobody pedals them as far as I understand, there's the difference...
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Old 11-06-19, 05:21 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
I already share the hiker biker trails with walkers, runners, people with baby carriages, bikes, trikes, roller skaters, skate boards, electric bikes, electric trikes, and people with dogs. So what is one more type of device going to matter?
Well, from what I've seen in places where there are escooter rentals, people control them very badly and they really can't slam the brakes on them. You do understand, btw, that you can, using your logic, add trucks to the mix because it's just one more type of device. The general rule is no powered devices with some very narrow exceptions. The sustained speed on an escooter is a lot faster than a kick scooter or a skateboard, and they're just a bad fit with pedestrians and bikes.
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Old 11-06-19, 06:56 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
The sustained speed on an escooter is a lot faster than a kick scooter or skateboard....
Uphill, yes. Downhill, no.

And we are talking about the "hills" of the Minuteman here.

The shared scooters in Brookline are limited to 15 mph assist. (And the Lime-E's in Arlington and Bedford are limited to 14.5 mph assist.)

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 11-06-19 at 07:02 AM.
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Old 11-06-19, 09:18 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
Uphill, yes. Downhill, no.

And we are talking about the "hills" of the Minuteman here.

The shared scooters in Brookline are limited to 15 mph assist. (And the Lime-E's in Arlington and Bedford are limited to 14.5 mph assist.)

-mr. bill
Who said we're limiting discussion to the Minuteman? I've seen rental escooters used in all sorts of contexts in several different cities. And the sustained speeds are also faster on level ground, not just uphill. I'm sure there are skilled kick-scooter riders who can go as fast on the level, but by definition, you can't go faster than your ability to put your leg in contact with the ground. Escooters allow inexperienced people to ride faster than their braking skills would warrant.
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Old 11-06-19, 09:50 AM
  #37  
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Wow, first you all are talking about "hiker biker trails" - of which the Minuteman is one.

Two, I'm just clarifying that I'm not talking about death defying hills, just a couple of percent down grade, where pretty much anyone on a kickscooter can keep up with pretty much anyone on an e-kickscooter.

Finally, kickscooters allow inexperienced people to ride faster than their skills (braking or otherwise) would warrant.
BICYCLES allow inexperienced people to ride faster than their skills (braking or otherwise) would warrant.

An "E" doesn't change that fact. (Frankly, nor does a "throttle.")

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 11-06-19 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 11-06-19, 11:48 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
Wow, first you all are talking about "hiker biker trails" - of which the Minuteman is one.

Two, I'm just clarifying that I'm not talking about death defying hills, just a couple of percent down grade, where pretty much anyone on a kickscooter can keep up with pretty much anyone on an e-kickscooter.

Finally, kickscooters allow inexperienced people to ride faster than their skills (braking or otherwise) would warrant.
BICYCLES allow inexperienced people to ride faster than their skills (braking or otherwise) would warrant.

An "E" doesn't change that fact. (Frankly, nor does a "throttle.")

-mr. bill
Loving the "all men are Socrates" logic you got going on about the Minuteman. Not all hiker/biker trails are the Minuteman. I've ridden on hillier. I've also ridden on ones with a lot more blind curves for that matter.

I'm not going to play stupid word games with you, anything is possible and we could also compare their terminal velocity if you ride one off a cliff, but the presence of a motor makes it much easier to accelerate to and maintain higher speeds than not having a motor. Frankly, I've never seen anyone on a kick scooter doing much I would consider stupid while I see the people on escooters in the city I live in (nowhere near the Minuteman) doing stupid stuff badly a lot.

As for control on hills, you're going to get a pretty good natural experiment--they were just reintroduced in San Francisco.

Are you in favor of letting people ride their motorcycles slowly on bike paths? I don't see how acting like there's no boundary problem between motorized and non-motorized use is going to end well rather than starting some sort of rational, un-sarcastic consideration of it.
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Old 11-06-19, 01:00 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Loving the "all men are Socrates" logic....
All E are Evil?

Originally Posted by livedarklions
I don't see how acting like there's no boundary problem between motorized and non-motorized use is going to end well....
There are Class 1 (pedal assist to 20 mph), Class 2 (pedal assist, throttle allowed to 20 mph), and Class 3 (pedal assist, throttle allowed to 28 mph), all 750W electric motor maximum. Current proposals are to allow Class 1 and Class 2 on the Minuteman, but not Class 3. None are allowed on sidewalks. (The Minuteman is not a sidewalk.)

I know, this isn't about the Minuteman.

Well, Brookline's pilot E-Scooter ends November 15, 2019. In addition to YOU seeing a few people behave badly on rental e-scooters in parts North of here, the usual suspects have reported that youth have been reported riding them, some people aren't wearing helmets, and finally, they've seen "multiple" people riding them on sidewalks! (All of that bad behavior is against the rules, but nobody has figured out how to keep MA holes off of e-scooters. It's the operator, not the device.)

But the recent prelimary report also showed that after 125 thousand trips, 150 thousand miles, over 18 thousand riders, there have been between 6 and 10 crashes reported.

Sorry, I don't know when the final report will be published, other than after November 15.

Originally Posted by livedarklions
...rational, un-sarcastic...
"...add trucks to the mix..."

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 11-06-19 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 11-06-19, 02:22 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
All E are Evil?



There are Class 1 (pedal assist to 20 mph), Class 2 (pedal assist, throttle allowed to 20 mph), and Class 3 (pedal assist, throttle allowed to 28 mph), all 750W electric motor maximum. Current proposals are to allow Class 1 and Class 2 on the Minuteman, but not Class 3. None are allowed on sidewalks. (The Minuteman is not a sidewalk.)

I know, this isn't about the Minuteman.

Well, Brookline's pilot E-Scooter ends November 15, 2019. In addition to YOU seeing a few people behave badly on rental e-scooters in parts North of here, the usual suspects have reported that youth have been reported riding them, some people aren't wearing helmets, and finally, they've seen "multiple" people riding them on sidewalks! (All of that bad behavior is against the rules, but nobody has figured out how to keep MA holes off of e-scooters. It's the operator, not the device.)

But the recent prelimary report also showed that after 125 thousand trips, 150 thousand miles, over 18 thousand riders, there have been between 6 and 10 crashes reported.

Sorry, I don't know when the final report will be published, other than after November 15.



"...add trucks to the mix..."

-mr. bill
Again, you better inform whoever posted all the signs referring to the bicycle statute on the Minuteman that it isn't a sidewalk because the section those signs are referring to specifically involves bicyclists yielding to pedestrians on sidewalks. As far as state law goes, it's just a sidewalk that is being regulated differently from other sidewalks by ordinance at this point. It's an accident of history--the Minuteman was built at a time when it wasn't really in a legal category other than sidewalk, and obviously, no one has seen fit to retroactively shoehorn it into the state regulatory scheme.

Pointing out that his logic would allow trucks on the path is not sarcasm, it's reductio ad absurdum. Huge difference.
Pointing out the absurd conclusion your logic leads to is demonstrating the flaw in the logic, not ascribing the assertion of an absurd conclusion to you.

Didn't say all e is evil. But I do think people ride escooters differently from kick scooters. By coincidence, last night I saw a guy blow through a red light and just miss getting flattened by the SUV driving quite normally in the second lane of the busy one way he was crossing. I've just never seen crap like that on kick scooters, but it's a damn frequent occurrence here in the few months since these things were introduced. Given the number of areas that have ended up banning the things, I don't think I'm alone in my sense that the neither fish nor fowl aspect of a powered device that handles poorly on the road and is a complete menace on the sidewalk makes the whole enterprise of renting the things out in mass numbers questionable. TBH, I think I've already put more energy into discussing these things because I think the economic writing is on the wall, and the rentals are going to be an unsustainable fad.

I don't see the Class 1 and 2 restrictions as being unreasonable, but I'm going to bet at 750w, we'll be discussing weight and size restrictions for the vehicles on paths within the next 3 years.
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Old 11-06-19, 03:54 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
It's an accident of history--the Minuteman was built at a time when it wasn't really in a legal category other than sidewalk, and obviously, no one has seen fit to retroactively shoehorn it into the state regulatory scheme.
The Dr. Paul Dudley White Bike Path predates the Minuteman, but whatever.


“‘Those of us who forget the past are doomed to, you know, forget like other things, like your car keys, or even your own phone number.’”

Let it go.

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 11-06-19 at 04:05 PM.
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