"All cyclists will need to fit detection beacons, says cycle industry boss"
#126
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Good thing these pilots finally woke up before running out of fuel and unable to return Hilo.
https://www.seattletimes.com/life/tr...oting-airport/
https://www.seattletimes.com/life/tr...oting-airport/
Nothing is perfect. If that's what you expect you will continue to be disappointed. A lot of good has been accomplished in automotive safety, but there is a lot more that is needed. I have contributed and plan to continue to do that.
There's room for you guys to do some good as well. I see a lot of skeptics here with little interest in making it better or even understanding what has been achieved.
You can start to explore the basic US traffic safety stats on the NHTSA website. The information is open to the public.
#128
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Nothing is perfect. If that's what you expect you will continue to be disappointed. A lot of good has been accomplished in automotive safety, but there is a lot more that is needed. I have contributed and plan to continue to do that.
There's room for you guys to do some good as well. I see a lot of skeptics here with little interest in making it better or even understanding what has been achieved. The two major safety improvements for cyclist had nothing to do with motoring; the safety bicycle and better brakes.
You can start to explore the basic US traffic safety stats on the NHTSA website. The information is open to the public.
There's room for you guys to do some good as well. I see a lot of skeptics here with little interest in making it better or even understanding what has been achieved. The two major safety improvements for cyclist had nothing to do with motoring; the safety bicycle and better brakes.
You can start to explore the basic US traffic safety stats on the NHTSA website. The information is open to the public.
Walking was safer before automobiles. Note how motoring has turned walkers into second class citizens with jaywalking laws.
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#129
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#130
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That might be true if motorist and pedestrians were the same class. Motorist could be considered second-class citizens if they were only allowed to cross sidewalks into parking lots at intersections, same as walkers are limited to only crossing roads at intersections.
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#132
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Walking was safer before automobiles. Note how motoring has turned walkers into second class citizens with jaywalking laws.
Last edited by KraneXL; 04-05-18 at 01:07 AM.
#133
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#134
Cycle Year Round
#135
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I will give up my guun when they pry my cold, dead....oh wait....wrong thread.
I will wear a beacon when they tranquilize me like a bear and strap it around my neck like a big orange bow-tie.
Whew!
I will wear a beacon when they tranquilize me like a bear and strap it around my neck like a big orange bow-tie.
Whew!
#136
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Beacon smecon. Why bother with beacons when you don't even go to the bathroom without your cell phone. All the monitoring Big Brother will ever need and best of all, the bills on you.
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While I didn't read the entire thread, this did get me to look up RFID range. It is reasonable to expect that the RFID is the most likely transponder to be used for bicycles.
With that in mind, a quick search gave me these numbers:
from here
It wouldn't be hard to imagine DOT updating the reflector standard from the 1950's to a new standard that includes an RFID. However, as seen for the short excerpt, the majority of responsibility, for detection, remains on the designer of the automobile and its antenna system.
With that in mind, a quick search gave me these numbers:
Even within one type of RFID, however, there can be a wide array of read ranges. A passive ultrahigh-frequency (UHF) handheld reader has a range of about 10 feet, while a model using a beam-steerable phased-array antenna can interrogate passive tags at a distance of 600 feet or more.
Keep in mind that the reader is only half of the story. A very small passive tag with a small antenna harvests less energy from and reflects less energy back to a reader. It, therefore, has a shorter read range than a tag with a much larger antenna. I have seen small passive UHF tags that can be read by an ordinary fixed reader at a distance of only 2 or 3 feet, and I have seen passive tags that can be interrogated at a range of 80 feet.
—Mark Roberti, Founder and Editor, RFID Journal
Keep in mind that the reader is only half of the story. A very small passive tag with a small antenna harvests less energy from and reflects less energy back to a reader. It, therefore, has a shorter read range than a tag with a much larger antenna. I have seen small passive UHF tags that can be read by an ordinary fixed reader at a distance of only 2 or 3 feet, and I have seen passive tags that can be interrogated at a range of 80 feet.
—Mark Roberti, Founder and Editor, RFID Journal
It wouldn't be hard to imagine DOT updating the reflector standard from the 1950's to a new standard that includes an RFID. However, as seen for the short excerpt, the majority of responsibility, for detection, remains on the designer of the automobile and its antenna system.
Last edited by Robert C; 04-05-18 at 06:19 AM.
#138
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#139
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If this beacon thing goes ahead, there will ahve to be a standard that makes sure that beacons must be used that can be detected by cars. Not sure if RFID is what would be chosen, or what else could be acceptable.
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I came across an article dealing with V2X standards, and see there is a fight brewing, at least in the US. The USDoT has an active NPRM to require light vehicle adoption of 802.11p wifi standard for V2X using part (10MHz) of 75MHz in the 5 GHz band which the DoT has control of. Apparently the cellular industry doesn't like this and instead is pushing for cell-based solution that works on 4G-LTE but is more optimized for 5G. I can see why they would push this as it would help drive adoption of 5G which is going to need a lot of gov't support. ISTM any cycle-beacon would have to work with one or the other of these systems.
scott s.
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scott s.
.
#141
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Good luck tracking this. Although, they did eventually find Osama BeenHiding by burner phone tracking. I am likely less of a priority than he was. And I doubt the smartest car out there is this retro.
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#142
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1512.16 Requirements for reflectors.
Bicycles shall be equipped with reflective devices to permit recognition and identification under illumination from motor vehicle headlamps. The use of reflector combinations off the center plane of the bicycle (defined in §1512.18(m)(2)) is acceptable if each reflector meets the requirements of this section and of §1512.18 (m) and (n) and the combination of reflectors has a clear field of view of ±10° vertically and ±50° horizontally. Sidewalk bicycles are not required to have reflectors.
Bicycles shall be equipped with reflective devices to permit recognition and identification under illumination from motor vehicle headlamps. The use of reflector combinations off the center plane of the bicycle (defined in §1512.18(m)(2)) is acceptable if each reflector meets the requirements of this section and of §1512.18 (m) and (n) and the combination of reflectors has a clear field of view of ±10° vertically and ±50° horizontally. Sidewalk bicycles are not required to have reflectors.
Putting RFID chips in something only a small fraction of cyclists will have is not very productive. Then again the whole idea that "smart" vehicle manufacturers would ever consider this crutch is counter productive. The systems need to be capable of driving as good if not better than a human driver. They NEED to be able to detect anything on the road. Expecting people to carry RFID chips is likely to cause the most likely to be on the street(kids) to be hit. If a kid darts onto the street to retrieve a ball I'd absolutely expect the "smart" vehicle to slam the brakes and avoid the collision. What about road debris? If a storm blows a tree down on the street will that tree also have an rfid chip?
Again, I am not your foe in this. I am only pointing out that is can be done. I am still not convinced that it should be done. Driving jobs employ a huge portion of the population. There are also the jobs created by driving jobs. As we dash forward, looking for any possible way to eliminate jobs, we need to work on a plan B for the people who will be directly impacted by that very loos of jobs. Living in their parents basements, or friends garage, is not a long term solution at a national level.
Yesterday, from Pew research:
The number and share of Americans living in multigenerational family households have continued to rise, despite improvements in the U.S. economy since the Great Recession. In 2016, a record 64 million people, or 20% of the U.S. population, lived with multiple generations under one roof, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of census data.
#143
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I is required for bicycles to have reflectors when they are sold. The requirements for a bicycle sold in the US can be found in the Code of federal regulations, Title 16, Chapter II, Subchapter C:
The car should begin slowing when it sees the ball, not the kid. That being said, I am not in disagreement, I am only pointing out that the technology exists, to add passive transponders to bicycles, today. Really, from a safety standpoint, it makes sense to have both active detection methods and transponders to serve as backups (again, that very statement starts with the assumption that self directed autos are a good idea to start with, that very position is still questionable).
Again, I am not your foe in this. I am only pointing out that is can be done. I am still not convinced that it should be done. Driving jobs employ a huge portion of the population. There are also the jobs created by driving jobs. As we dash forward, looking for any possible way to eliminate jobs, we need to work on a plan B for the people who will be directly impacted by that very loos of jobs. Living in their parents basements, or friends garage, is not a long term solution at a national level.
Yesterday, from Pew research:
Hey!, Exactly 2,000 posts!
The car should begin slowing when it sees the ball, not the kid. That being said, I am not in disagreement, I am only pointing out that the technology exists, to add passive transponders to bicycles, today. Really, from a safety standpoint, it makes sense to have both active detection methods and transponders to serve as backups (again, that very statement starts with the assumption that self directed autos are a good idea to start with, that very position is still questionable).
Again, I am not your foe in this. I am only pointing out that is can be done. I am still not convinced that it should be done. Driving jobs employ a huge portion of the population. There are also the jobs created by driving jobs. As we dash forward, looking for any possible way to eliminate jobs, we need to work on a plan B for the people who will be directly impacted by that very loos of jobs. Living in their parents basements, or friends garage, is not a long term solution at a national level.
Yesterday, from Pew research:
Hey!, Exactly 2,000 posts!
#144
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This really isn't the place for discussions of economics. It creates a total thread-jack from the discussion Cyclists and Self Driving Cars. I will just end my part of this discussion by saying that the sentiments you are expressing, and all that goes with them, are sentiments that I shared in my twenties and thirties. Then in my forties I started teaching economics. This caused me to research the subject more than I ever did before.
I came to realize that the vociferous proponents of the Free-Market not only cherry pick their source authors (Hayek comes to mind) but they also cherry pick from those authors ideas. As any listener of Sean Hannity knows, Hayek was a strong proponent of the power of the free market; yet he argued that this could only function in the presence of a Universal Basic Income.
I can keep going; but, again, this forum is not the place, and this thread is not the place. Again, I admit that my mentioning the overall social impact of Self Driving Vehicles, should also be part of the equation as we consider their impact on safety was the beginning of a thread-jack. For that I apologize to the followers of this thread.
I am sure there will be more comments made about the positions that I, myself, used to hold; but I will avoid commenting on them. That silence should not bee seen as an endorsement for the positions I used to hold. I just don't see this as the place (and while I am at work definitely isn't the time).
Last edited by Robert C; 04-06-18 at 07:24 AM.
#145
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Driving jobs employ a huge portion of the population. There are also the jobs created by driving jobs. As we dash forward, looking for any possible way to eliminate jobs, we need to work on a plan B for the people who will be directly impacted by that very loos of jobs.
Not advancing (when the tech is safer than human drivers in many situations, which so far it is proving to be and which is a pretty low bar) because we want to preserve jobs is a pretty lame way to run a society. We could be the world leader in alt-energy components, but we would rather fight over coal miners .... and never about retraining them, which is sad.
However .... I do not expect society to restructure itself or to stop advancing because I happen to have gotten hired somewhere. The government is not supposed to guarantee people jobs ... and it is supposed to create an environment where the best, safest, cleanest industries can advance.
One surgeon using a robot laproscopy machine might replace five or seven others, plus there would be loss of plane fare, cab rides, hotel stays as those handful of specialized surgeons tried to see patients ... but that one surgeon can treat more patients in a day than he could in a week before the advent of the machine. Tell the people who couldn't get surgery how bad it is is that some cab driver lost revenue.
For that matter, tell Uber to shut down because it is hurting cab drivers.
The government, likewise, is not obligated to provide retraining. Nice if it could ... but i'd rather see schools teach kids better, and let the adults attend community college vocational programs.
In an ideal world, the government wouldn't be wasting money on BS and would have plenty to retrain displaced workers .... and in an ideal world the government wouldn't be robbing the social security trust fund for pork-barrel projects, cheating the workers and employees who paid into it their entire working lives.
If AVs put cab drivers and bus drivers out of work .... and save say, 30,000 of the 37,0000 killed on the highways each year .... pretty good trade, i think.
#146
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My only problem with that is that, right now, AVs are killing more people per mile traveled than traditional cars.
#147
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#148
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Man, I missed all the AV fun last week laid up sick.
First off, I have a hard time listening to anything coming out of a person's mouth who believes we all may be microchipped in twenty years time. In twenty years time, it is simply far more likely these systems have matured to a much better than human level, than needing beacons to detect.
Now, if we ever get to the point of a smart grid, where computers are optimizing traffic flows around an urban environment in conjunction with AVs, it is ridiculous to think that all road users won't need equipment like ADS-B. That won't be for cyclist safety, though, it will be to know and understand what is going on.
Secondly,
I have. I'd say its about 80/20 detection v not, but it really isn't an analogous system. A fixed detector pointed exactly where it needs to be is different than a dynamic platform.
It has it, but as Road Fan mentioned, it is still being refined. Even when dealing with automobiles, it is not perfect. Much better than a distracted driver, for sure, but I'd be lying if I said I haven't punted a few blow up target cars testing prototype systems.
OEMs are very careful in how they market their systems. None will guarantee that you avoid collision, they all have some version of "collision mitigation" or "driver assist" or such.
First off, I have a hard time listening to anything coming out of a person's mouth who believes we all may be microchipped in twenty years time. In twenty years time, it is simply far more likely these systems have matured to a much better than human level, than needing beacons to detect.
Now, if we ever get to the point of a smart grid, where computers are optimizing traffic flows around an urban environment in conjunction with AVs, it is ridiculous to think that all road users won't need equipment like ADS-B. That won't be for cyclist safety, though, it will be to know and understand what is going on.
Secondly,
The reactions here and on the original blog story are largely talking about AVs. The whole issue has history, going back 15 to 20 years, before AVs were seriously considered a possibility.
Today many cars have Forward Vehicle Collision Warning functions that have trouble detecting cycles and pedestrians....
Today many cars have Forward Vehicle Collision Warning functions that have trouble detecting cycles and pedestrians....
OEMs are very careful in how they market their systems. None will guarantee that you avoid collision, they all have some version of "collision mitigation" or "driver assist" or such.
#149
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Sample size is small and I do expect it to get better, but I don't know for a fact that it will and I'm not sure I'd appreciate being an unpaid, unwitting safety beta tester if I were a cyclist or pedestrian living in one of these communities.
#150
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Bacon, not beacon and I keep the cordless away from the toilet as it is, no cellphones, they are easy to lose or break and if I take any gizmo with me it's a small radio. I'm not on the phone, it's in case I have a medical problem or get a call, and I'm not going to be operating it while engaged, to be blunt.
Why are we going off the road here with that?
And why are we being trolled by some dude you never heard of and you might not it might not even be credible?
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