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Lighter, More Compact Gasoline Stoves?

Old 04-04-13, 05:43 AM
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Niles H.
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Lighter, More Compact Gasoline Stoves?

The Borde Bomb is compact. If you do a google image search, you can see some good pictures.

I've been thinking of ways of building something compact and lighter.

With modern materials and some ingenuity it should be possible.

Any ideas?


(--Positive ones that are in the direction of design ideas, and making it work, making it happen.)
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Old 04-04-13, 06:09 AM
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I am aware of the dangers and am willing to meet them, but don't want to get lost in those or other aspects in this thread -- it's just for the creative or positive design ideas.
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Old 04-04-13, 07:38 AM
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Yeah I have a idea. Being an engineer that spent part of my career in a fire protection research group, I suggest you leave this up to the people that know how to test their designs in a safe setting.

If you really feel a need for a white gas stove that is light weight, look at the Svea, Optimus 99 or Optimus 8R. Many of these exist on the used market but a good one won't be too cheap. Phoebus 725 is similar but has a steel tank which is heavier, but had a removable heat shield for cold weather operation. I am not sure but I think that the Svea is still in production. Of these, my favorite was the Phoebus. An external pump could also be purchased for the 99 or 8R. (The pump would work on the Svea, but not during operation.)

Yes I read your post number two, but I can't overemphasize that this should be left to those that have the facilities for proper testing.
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Old 04-04-13, 09:59 AM
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Already on this train. Will be careful.

One approach would be to use a smaller than usual aluminum fuel tank (at least for shorter trips). This approach would save weight and make the design more compact. You could have sizes more like the sizes used for alcohol stoves. But the fuel would be lighter and much more energy dense and long-lasting.

For longer trips, you could use sizes more in line with canister stoves -- four and eight ounce for example.

For even longer trips (or longer intervals between refueling opportunities -- you could still use the smaller sizes on the longer trips if you wanted to refuel more often instead of using larger containers -- similar to the alcohol users' approach but more efficient), you could also use the standard Sigg and MSR containers. Or in-between sizes, or larger, depending on trip and refueling intervals.

Ultralight siphon systems would enhance refueling opportunities in some parts of the world. Not always necessary to take but could be very useful for some trips.

Do away with the pump. Use presta valve installed in cap. Very light, simple, serviceable, and reliable.

Use lighter fuel line than MSR uses. Something more like what Primus uses.

Maybe just use the Primus Omni Ti and lighten. (New, smaller, and lighter tank or tanks, for example; presta instead of pump; lighter, simpler stand and housing, etc.)

Or find (or build or adapt) Ti burner for the Borde Bomb design. Lose the brass. Use lightweight line to lightweight tank.
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Old 04-04-13, 10:48 AM
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I still love my Svea 123. The brass one I have, from the 1970's, weighs 11.7 ounces. I think a Titanium Svea would be the way to go.
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Old 04-04-13, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
I still love my Svea 123. The brass one I have, from the 1970's, weighs 11.7 ounces. I think a Titanium Svea would be the way to go.
I think mine is heavier than that even without the windscreen/pot-stand, wrench, nipple pick, pot, and pot handle. I think mine is older that the 70's though. I get all nostalgic every time I handle it. But when the time comes to pack it always gets left home because of the weight.

I wonder what a titanium one would weigh and cost.
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Old 04-04-13, 11:17 AM
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interesting , a hand made piece.. so very limited numbers..
The Borde Benzin Brenner was created in 1956 by the Swiss inventor Joseph Borde and was later transferred over to Norbert Baader who is still making them by hand. Only a couple hundred are made a year and can only be easily found in some European specialty shops, Japan and on Ebay

http://zenstoves.net/Petrol.htm

Part of what makes a stove bigger is the pot supports..



there are simple light Alcohol burning stoves of Titanium.. , really simple because of the fuel used.



MSR whisperlight is thoroughly tested, spare parts available around the globe.

and if you leave the pump in the fuel bottle, quite compact to pack..

I use their midsized bottle, it goes in that under the frame water bottle cage.
and got a sewn cover made for the pump, left in the bottle.

Last edited by fietsbob; 04-04-13 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 04-04-13, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Part of what makes a stove bigger is the pot supports..



there are simple light Alcohol burning stoves of Titanium.. , really simple because of the fuel used.



MSR whisperlight is thoroughly tested, and if you leave the pump in the fuel bottle,
quite compact to pack..
I use their midsized bottle, it goes in that under the frame water bottle cage.
and got a cover made for the pump ,. left in the bottle.
I've been thinking of adapting one of those titanium alcohol burners for use in a gas system. It might involve drilling some extra holes, which wouldn't be a big deal.

Could make for a very light burner and stand.

Titanium can definitely take the heat.

Has to be one of the greatest materials ever.
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Old 04-04-13, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by staehpj1 View Post
I think mine is heavier than that even without the windscreen/pot-stand, wrench, nipple pick, pot, and pot handle. I think mine is older that the 70's though. I get all nostalgic every time I handle it.
That weight is the dry stove and key/wrench only. I had an older one from the 1960's that I used in my teens. In the 70's I lent it to my brother who lost it and replaced it with the self-cleaning model (external pick not required) in the mid-1970's.

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Old 04-04-13, 01:13 PM
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the fuel pre-heat loop before coming to the jet, and being sprayed on a red hot plate
seems common to many petrol stoves.. but my sample number is fairly small..
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Old 04-08-13, 09:59 AM
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I don't see why you couldn't take the Svea burner tube assembly and use it on an aluminum tank and wind screen setup.

Coleman fuel and steel don't go together well......Naptha will corrode steel after a bit.

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Old 04-08-13, 02:39 PM
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Ordered the titanium Vargo Triad. This will make for a very light stand/burner.

http://www.google.com/search?q=vargo...12%3B450%3B450

http://www.amazon.com/Vargo-Titanium...ds=vargo+triad

Also found a Vargo screw-top container on Amazon.

Might try plastic first, though. Brake fluid (among other things) comes in nice little 12oz cylindrical HDPE containers. Johnsen's seems to use a very nice, sturdy version of this container,

http://www.amazon.com/Johnsens-Brake...ns+brake+fluid

I know that plastic may seem inappropriate here to some people, and it did to me as well, for a time. The more I looked into it, though, the more viable the idea seemed. Made-for-gasoline containers sold in gas stations and hardware stores are typically made from HDPE. Metal gas cans seem to be going the way of the dinosaurs. So HDPE is a viable material.

Don't yet know about PET and PETE, but will look into those materials as well.

Quarts of oil also come in HDPE containers. Lighter fluid. Charcoal lighter fluids. Various solvents. White gas....

What about the strength, the ability to hold pressure? They are all pretty sturdy. They can certainly take some pressure (look at the Airzound). And it isn't as though they need to hold 120 psi. Will test their strength, and use at pressures below 50% of capacity. Probably won't even need to go close to 50%.

Shape? Many containers are more or less rectangular in cross section.

Better if they are round in cross section. This shape would come up to pressure faster, with less distortion and stress.

The brake fluid containers, and others with similar shapes, look good. And they come in various sizes, both larger and smaller than 12oz.

Will drill a hole in the cap, a bit smaller in diameter than Presta valve. Will then thread Presta into hole, using a gasoline-resistant Permatex gasket sealant to make a gasoline-tight seal. The cap can be transferred to different bottles and sizes.

Will put a nut on both sides when installing Presta, and seal with the Permatex sealant.

*******

So that's an ultralight burner plus an ultralight, pump-free fuel reservoir.

Now for the rest.

Thinking of checking for small-diameter titanium tubing, maybe from the world of RC hobbyists. Will look for small in-line valve from them as well.

Maybe use three inches or so of small-diameter brass tubing for the generator tube/pre-heater.

For the fuel jet and fuel-air mixing or carburation, I'm not sure. Maybe cannibalize an old WhisperLite. Any ideas?

(I also wonder if there might be a lighter alternative. The WhisperLite parts could probably be kept pretty minimal and light, though. But maybe there are jets available somewhere that are lighter and smaller, maybe even ti.... Maybe just screw it directly into the (bendable) brass tubing of the generator tube.... Or tap a small nipple for the purpose.... Maybe just drill the small hole to form the jet myself....)

This may end up being one of the lightest gas-burning stoves going. Maybe even the lightest.




*******
[For the moms and the nannies and the proctors out there, and others with similar leanings: this thread is more for the innovation/creation/design-oriented types -- the designers, innovators, and test pilots. If you feel a need to exercise your inclinations to advise, and attempts to prohibit or dissuade, please do it on your own thread. This one is for the creative-development inclinations or mindsets. Thanks. Not saying your inclinations have no value, just that this particular thread is intended for creative development and brainstorming ideas. Which also have their place in the world.]

Last edited by Niles H.; 04-08-13 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 04-08-13, 03:08 PM
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One feature of the AirZound is its usage of a bottle designed to hold pressure.
Before buying anything else, you should pump one of those brake fluid bottles up to 15-25 psi and gauge your feelings about its soundness.
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Old 04-08-13, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Niles H. View Post
...For the moms and the nannies...
Niles, I see you're finally going to prove a theory I've held since some of your earliest threads, in a fairly definitive manner.

DIY gasoline stove with a homemade plastic pressure reservoir, what a great idea.

Fuel efficiency improves with better atomization, so be sure to pump that baby up pretty high before you light it, just like a MSR Whisperlite.

Also keep the telephone handy with 911 on speed dial, so you can reach EMTs and Fire Dept in a single, convenient call.
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Old 04-08-13, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferrous Bueller View Post
One feature of the AirZound is its usage of a bottle designed to hold pressure.
Before buying anything else, you should pump one of those brake fluid bottles up to 15-25 psi and gauge your feelings about its soundness.
I'll be pumping up at least several to see how much they can take, and then using them with large margins of safety. And putting them inside plastic oven bags for added safety.

Some people have non-reflective judgements and reactions about plastics. Plastics can actually be, and often are, quite strong, and are used in any number of applications that depend on their strength.

This system will have more safety and wider margins of safety than many existing stove systems.

If I wanted extra pressure, I would probably go to titanium containers. Much stronger and more fatigue resistant than aluminum. And more impact and corrosion resistant as well.

Last edited by Niles H.; 04-08-13 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 04-09-13, 11:59 AM
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It's not unleaded, but don't think you can get any more compact and light that the Caldera keg F system. 6.3 oz (181 gm) all in. I'm getting this for backpacking, for touring I use a super cat stove, a larger pot and cozy.
http://www.traildesigns.com/stoves/c...f-stove-system
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Old 04-12-13, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by seeker333 View Post
Niles, I see you're finally going to prove a theory I've held since some of your earliest threads, in a fairly definitive manner.

DIY gasoline stove with a homemade plastic pressure reservoir, what a great idea.

Fuel efficiency improves with better atomization, so be sure to pump that baby up pretty high before you light it, just like a MSR Whisperlite.
........
.
This s just the sort of false and cliched twaddle one might expect from a rather senile nanny.
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Old 04-12-13, 04:10 PM
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I've been working with projects and inventions involving gasoline and explosives since childhood, and have learned the ropes of staying safe. But I don't recommend that inexperienced persons try making these kinds of experiments.

*******
There, that's out of the way.

Update: The Vargo Triad has arrived.

She's a beauty.

I love titanium.

The ideal pressure range for the Whisperlite is 15-25 psi. (Since the fuel is no longer a liquid dowstream from the heated generator tube, atomization isn't even a possibility, much less an issue.)

This is looking really good. The Whisperlite also functions more efficiently when not at maximum power, and is able to simmer when the pressure is kept low. All this lines up very well.

Connections need to be extra secure. This is an area of failure in some of the commercial stoves. (I just read about separation issues with some of the commercial models.)

There is a lulling illusion that the commercial stoves are more or less perfect; but you can at least carefully inspect your parachute, if not learn to pack it very caringly and safely yourself. Extra security at potential failure points can be a very good thing. Commercial stoves should be understood and inspected regularly, and o-rings should be kept fresh and sound.
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Old 04-12-13, 05:46 PM
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An interesting thread. I'll reserve judgment on the practicality and safety of a project like this and offer the following observations for your consideration. You are combining several different elements in uses they were not designed for. The presta valve has a rubber o ring that was designed to seal against air pressure, but not designed to work in a hydrocarbon rich atmosphere. Try to determine the effects of long term exposure to gasoline on this o ring. If it should break down while the stove is lit it could have serious consequences. As far as I know there are no stove manufacturers using plastic fuel tanks for pressurized fuel systems. In a market that is driven by weight saving and manufacturing costs, there has to be a reason for this. Try to determine what the reasons are and see if they are valid in your own application. In response to one of your earlier posts, metal gas cans are actually making a comeback. Many large industrial sites no longer allow plastic gas cans on site, for a number of reasons, and metal gas cans are required. I would urge you to use the smallest quantities of gasoline that you can in you experiments. Remember you are basically dealing with a bomb that only requires an ignition source. Gas burns are Nasty
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Old 04-12-13, 08:18 PM
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Kind of like you know this isn't going to end well.

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Old 04-12-13, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by spinner View Post
An interesting thread. I'll reserve judgment on the practicality and safety of a project like this and offer the following observations for your consideration. You are combining several different elements in uses they were not designed for. The presta valve has a rubber o ring that was designed to seal against air pressure, but not designed to work in a hydrocarbon rich atmosphere. Try to determine the effects of long term exposure to gasoline on this o ring. If it should break down while the stove is lit it could have serious consequences. As far as I know there are no stove manufacturers using plastic fuel tanks for pressurized fuel systems. In a market that is driven by weight saving and manufacturing costs, there has to be a reason for this. Try to determine what the reasons are and see if they are valid in your own application. In response to one of your earlier posts, metal gas cans are actually making a comeback. Many large industrial sites no longer allow plastic gas cans on site, for a number of reasons, and metal gas cans are required. I would urge you to use the smallest quantities of gasoline that you can in you experiments. Remember you are basically dealing with a bomb that only requires an ignition source. Gas burns are Nasty
Good observations there. I do believe in redundant levels of safety.

As for the HDPE (the word 'plastic' tends to set off too many cliched reactions in many minds): I believe it is engineered to withstand enough pressure when it is made for shipping and selling hazardous materials to the public. I have seen it hold more pressure than I will be needng or using.

The stove manfacturers have a very CYA way of approaching things in a litigious society. One issue for them is the melting of the plastic if the container is set inside a windscreen, for example, or in some burning gas from a leak, or from overpriming, or from a valve that someone neglected to close when priming (just read of a case of that). Or if someone cross-threads the cap, or leaves it insufficiently tightened. These companies really need to chimp-proof things as much as they can.

However, MSR engineers have told me that their reasoning behind the plastic pumps is that the plastic will melt, in case of some kind of a leak that ignites. Old or damaged o-rings are another cause of leaks, and they know of cases.

They said that the fuel would spill out but at least it wouldn't behave like a bomb. They considered a metal pump to be significantly more dangerous.

Sun exposure is also a concern with outdoor materials. I am very alert to UV degradation issues.

*******
A bike mechanic told me that there are nylon seals inside the Presta valves. I will be taking some apart and replacing anything that needs replacing.

Thank you for some specific engineering-oriented, intelligent and constructive points.
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Old 04-12-13, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
Kind of like you know this isn't going to end well.

Great character that coyote, but never did identify with him.

Good picture though.
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Old 04-12-13, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Niles H. View Post
I've been working with projects and inventions involving gasoline and explosives since childhood.
Truly a fitting epitaph.

I think you've inhaled the fumes from these projects for too long, and it's affected your judgement.
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Old 04-12-13, 09:24 PM
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Niles H.
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Originally Posted by seeker333 View Post
Truly a fitting epitaph.

I think you've inhaled the fumes from these projects for too long, and it's affected your judgement.
You are too reminiscent of a talking taxidermied spinster playing fly-on-the-wall in the Bates Motel.
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Old 04-12-13, 09:46 PM
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How are those brake fluid bottle pressure tests coming along?
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