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Old 12-20-14, 08:50 AM
  #201  
carleton
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Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Its almost like it drops when Im leaning hard in the corners, as those pulses are about that timing. It would have taking about 3-4 laps to do this effort, or 6-7 corners. hmmmm the g-force of our 138m track is throwing it off?
Damn, man. You could be right! If the cranks use inertia (or whatever the proper term is) to sense the cranks going around, whipping around on a tight track like yours could certainly upset that.
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Old 12-20-14, 09:18 AM
  #202  
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Looking at past race data, it never drops until I get to about 50kmh+, which is right into 'can't stand up anymore' territory. And it drops in the corners, 100% it pulses about every 5 seconds (10s laps at that speed)

For example my last man standing data, it settles down once the speed drops down:




Will be interesting to see how it looks at the new 250m track in 2 weeks. Still a lot of force into the corners, but our 138m is HARD when you go fast (like big guys break wheels).


EDIT

to add to that, I found some data where I was doing 48-52kmh and it didnt drop but it was on the blue line (bigger turning radius). So its possible its only a problem on our toilet bowl track. Until Im running 10s 200m that is

Last edited by gtrob; 12-20-14 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 01-11-15, 01:08 PM
  #203  
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Even the greats have a hiccup in their training sometimes! See link: Instagram
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Old 01-11-15, 02:30 PM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by zizou View Post
Even the greats have a hiccup in their training sometimes! See link: Instagram
I find it interesting that her coach has her box jumping so high.

It's been proven that, after a certain point, the key to higher box jumps is pulling the legs up higher. The key is to watch how high the upper body goes, not the feet!

So if you are training explosiveness, a 30 inch box may not do anything more that a 24 inch box jump will. But you'll save your shins on failure

I'll see if I can find proof.
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Old 01-11-15, 02:46 PM
  #205  
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Here's an example:

Notice how clearing the box is more about him pulling is feet up as opposed to him launching himself off of the ground. Notice that his hips only moved like 2 feet off the ground




Don't get me wrong. I think plyo box jumps are a great exercise. I do them. Just don't get fooled by these tricks. It's like tearing a phone book in half by the spine to demonstrate strength

I used to get caught up in trying to get on top of the next highest jump box (I bought a set). Then I moved and gave them away. I joined a gym that didn't have them and I realized that all I had to do was give it my all on every jump (no matter how low the box was) and try to get as high as I could over it, I was getting the same training ...but without the impressive video

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Old 01-11-15, 02:52 PM
  #206  
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Yeah, I've also heard that. So, why not just vertical jumps?

I don't know why box jumping is necessary, instead of just jumping or just vertical jumps, unless it's for the measurement ability of box jumping. But given the leg-up fact, really seems like straight-up vert jumps would be better.
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Old 01-11-15, 03:04 PM
  #207  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
Yeah, I've also heard that. So, why not just vertical jumps?

I don't know why box jumping is necessary, instead of just jumping or just vertical jumps, unless it's for the measurement ability of box jumping. But given the leg-up fact, really seems like straight-up vert jumps would be better.
I don't think people use box jumps to measure leaping ability (or at least I hope not!).

I think the trend to do high box jumps is a bad merging of 2 things:

- People learning that box jumps are an effective body weight training tool.
- People assuming that if a box jump is good, a higher box jump must be better and doing the leg-up thing and fooling themselves (while impressing others).

I think box jumps can be a Poor Man's Power Clean. I also think that Depth Jumps (jumping down from boxes and using your legs in a hack squat formation as shocks) can train the same muscle group via "negative" eccentric contractions.

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Old 01-11-15, 03:06 PM
  #208  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
Yeah, I've also heard that. So, why not just vertical jumps?

I don't know why box jumping is necessary, instead of just jumping or just vertical jumps, unless it's for the measurement ability of box jumping. But given the leg-up fact, really seems like straight-up vert jumps would be better.
I think jumping onto something makes the landing a bit easier as you're saving yourself that 30 inches or whatever of free fall.
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Old 01-11-15, 04:19 PM
  #209  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
Yeah, I've also heard that. So, why not just vertical jumps?

I don't know why box jumping is necessary, instead of just jumping or just vertical jumps, unless it's for the measurement ability of box jumping. But given the leg-up fact, really seems like straight-up vert jumps would be better.
Maybe the box is to ensure you get to a certain height, whereas a plane vertical jump could get lower without you realising it?

My coach has us do 'frog jumps' at the end of most training sessions. Except instead of just crouching down and jumping up with straightened legs, you have to explode up and pull your knees up as well.
After 9 x500m or whatever, 2 sets of ten of those can be pretty hard to complete.

The theory is that it teaches your muscles to deliver explosive power, once they are already fatigued.
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Old 01-11-15, 09:21 PM
  #210  
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Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
Maybe the box is to ensure you get to a certain height, whereas a plane vertical jump could get lower without you realising it?
Yeah, I think a certain height (like 24 or 30 inches) is OK. But, pushing the limits based on how high you can hike your knees up is different. There is also a significant level of anxiety involved when you are trying to jump on to a high box. I really think it's unnecessary to achive a training effect.

If you concentrate on jumping as "hard" as possible or as quickly as possible (not as high as possible), you'll get the same effect without the anxiety or risk.

As you note, fatigue can and will set in. It's simply a matter of time till you fail a rep and bruise your shins or worse.

So, I jump on high boxes...not as high as possible

Remember, the objective is to train your glutes, hams, and quads to perform the power motion to get your body off of the ground. What allows folks to get on the high boxes is the knee hike and the arm swing, neither of which get any significant training or are even the focus of the exercise. That's a lot of risk for no extra reward.

Google "Box Jump Fail" and click videos and see for yourselves (most are funny and no one got hurt).

This isn't training. This is learning a trick:

And this is just being competitive (still not training):

Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
My coach has us do 'frog jumps' at the end of most training sessions. Except instead of just crouching down and jumping up with straightened legs, you have to explode up and pull your knees up as well.
After 9 x500m or whatever, 2 sets of ten of those can be pretty hard to complete.

The theory is that it teaches your muscles to deliver explosive power, once they are already fatigued.
I can definitely see how this would work. I've had a coach assign seated and standing starts as the last efforts of a long training day.

Last edited by carleton; 01-11-15 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 01-11-15, 10:44 PM
  #211  
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I agree on the box height thing, unless you are trying to train leg speed? I dont see why you want to to land on the top of whatever box you are jumping on completely squatting (ie jumping on a 3ft box but only jump 1.5feet in the air). I personally use a maybe 1ft ledge and do 1 foot jumps. I could go higher, but the ledge is only there to save my knees, not challenge my height. In my head Im trying to jump as high as I can and land on the ground, but the ledge cuts my drop in half.

That death drop looks like a fast way to DOMS. Nothing causes muscle tearing quite like the stretch/compress movements like going down stairs. I once 'ran' down a mountain (sun was setting fast), and couldn't walk for days.
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Old 01-11-15, 11:31 PM
  #212  
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I agree about the eccentric loading. That can be an issue especially if you aren't accustomed to it. I remember once when I rode a fixed gear for the first time in several months, I stopped using my legs which creates a perfect storm of eccentric contraction in the hip flexors. I also couldn't walk for days.

The Seated Box Jump is also a great exercise. It's the box jump without the eccentric spring.

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Old 01-12-15, 11:06 AM
  #213  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Here's an example:

Notice how clearing the box is more about him pulling is feet up as opposed to him launching himself off of the ground. Notice that his hips only moved like 2 feet off the ground


The hips may be the center of mass while standing, but by raising his knees higher he is raising his center of mass relative to his hips. Which requires more power. It's the height reached by the center of mass which is indicative of power of the jump.
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Old 01-12-15, 11:21 AM
  #214  
carleton
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Originally Posted by Oldan Slo View Post
The hips may be the center of mass while standing, but by raising his knees higher he is raising his center of mass relative to his hips. Which requires more power. It's the height reached by the center of mass which is indicative of power of the jump.
Technically, you are right. But, if this exercise is to be used as a training tool for the legs, hiking the feet up an extra 24 inches to mount such as obstacle doesn't increase the exercise's effectiveness because by the time he hikes his knees up, the explosion of his glutes, hams, and quads (the goal of the exercise) is over!

Let's look at another example. Clean and Jerk vs Power Clean.

The Power Clean (done in both exercises) is where the legs are primarily engaged. The Jerk overhead is a highly technical maneuver with little benefit for the legs. So, if your goal is to train your legs, then the Power Clean is sufficient. Doing the Clean and Jerk adds more risk for little added reward in leg training.
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Old 01-12-15, 12:20 PM
  #215  
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I feel like I want a safe way of throwing a leg press sled, that would be a cool exercise. I already do it a little, maybe an inch or two, and it already feels unsafe for me knees to catch it. It would be cool if there was a machine that would let me throw it and it caught it for me and somehow brought it back down for me.
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Old 01-12-15, 12:31 PM
  #216  
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Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
I feel like I want a safe way of throwing a leg press sled, that would be a cool exercise. I already do it a little, maybe an inch or two, and it already feels unsafe for me knees to catch it. It would be cool if there was a machine that would let me throw it and it caught it for me and somehow brought it back down for me.
Yeah, I know the feeling and I've imagined such a sled, too.

An exercise that does something similar (explosion with soft landing) is the Split Box Jump. Add a weighted vest to increase intensity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeudQ1G2ykc

Google-ing "split box jump" will yield some ridiculous results. The the video above is the basic (and safe) way to do it.

This is just silly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqfS6uOtMJ8
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Old 01-12-15, 03:39 PM
  #217  
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Hmm, some kind of fluid brake with a clutch mechanism... Seems like a pretty cool design problem, but I don't think it's worth the risk on the typical sled configuration.
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Old 01-12-15, 04:10 PM
  #218  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
The Seated Box Jump is also a great exercise. It's the box jump without the eccentric spring.

This one is interesting where the slow mo shows the big involvement of the arm swing. Still pretty impressive.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153029547467605
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Old 01-12-15, 04:11 PM
  #219  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
Hmm, some kind of fluid brake with a clutch mechanism... Seems like a pretty cool design problem, but I don't think it's worth the risk on the typical sled configuration.
It is an interesting design problem!

Here's a thought. What about some fluid type system where your legs force some blades through water. You increase the resistance by tilting the blades. The sled would simply float down even if you removed your feet.

WaterRower uses water in a loosely similar way:


Hooking up a "Power Leg Press" sled with water/oil resistance would probably be a nightmare for a commercial gym to maintain, though
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Old 01-12-15, 07:33 PM
  #220  
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There is something similar for rock climbing TRUBLUE Auto Belay where the load is the climber and a magnetic clutch. You could probably do something with a mag trainer and a ratchet to clamp the resistance on the way down. But it would be far simpler to just use bump stops from a suspension to soften the impact when it hits the bottom.
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Old 01-21-15, 01:22 AM
  #221  
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Old 01-21-15, 09:48 AM
  #222  
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I seem to be getting ads on this on just about every site I visit these days, finally clicked on it

Athos - Wearable Technology for Fitness

Kind of a cool idea and would be interesting to see the applications in cycling. But its one of those "ok I have the data...now what?"
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Old 01-21-15, 10:03 AM
  #223  
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Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
I seem to be getting ads on this on just about every site I visit these days, finally clicked on it

Athos - Wearable Technology for Fitness

Kind of a cool idea and would be interesting to see the applications in cycling. But its one of those "ok I have the data...now what?"
1) It's a solution without a problem.

2) It uses made-up units of measure (like Nike "Fuel Points").

3) The way you could use it is to determine when you are fatigued and/or when you are recovered enough to start another set. But you can do both of those with a $50 heart rate monitor.
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Old 01-21-15, 10:14 AM
  #224  
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I've seen these in the EPL (English football) for a few years. Seems of little use in cycling because of the fact that you can wear a heartrate monitor already.
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Old 01-21-15, 04:23 PM
  #225  
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The Boulder Valley Velodrome website has been updated for 2015:
Boulder Valley Velodrome
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