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Is 12 speed Shimano imminent?

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Is 12 speed Shimano imminent?

Old 06-16-20, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Fox Farm
Campy Chorus 12
Or SRED...
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Old 06-16-20, 03:24 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by sfrider
Or SRED...
I bought two chorus 12 groups for the price of one force AXS group. I could have bought three for the price of a red AXS group. Almost a year later, both are working great. The 11-34 cassette sprockets are spaced a lot better than SRAM's 10-33. No change to hubs required. I like the 48/32 crank.

I'm still using two force AXS chains along with four Campy 12 chains. After seeing a red AXS chain failure on weight weenies, not sure that I'd buy any more.
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Old 06-17-20, 06:01 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by sced
Just get Campagnolo 12 - very affordable in Chorus. If you are an informed, careful shopper you can put together a great bike for less than buying from a shop.
Affordable? Maybe as a complete group on sale, but spare parts seem quite expensive. A new rear DR is 2x ultegra and a cassette is 3x. - For one more cog.
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Old 06-17-20, 07:04 AM
  #29  
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Wait until shimano 12 comes out. Their microspline cassettes won't be all that cheap either.

Buying all the parts included in a groupo separately does not cost 2-3 times as much. I came up with 16% more from pinkjersey.com.

I paid significantly less for chorus 12 than a chorus 11 group from 2018.

Force and chorus 12 cassettes cost about the same, but both are much higher priced than 11 speed. Riding 5000 miles a year, you should get 3 years from a cassette. Tires or chains will cost more, over the course of 15,000 miles.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 06-17-20 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 06-17-20, 07:11 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
Wait until shimano 12 comes out. Their microspline cassettes won't be all that cheap either.
Shimano 12 speed mountain cassettes are about $100 less than comparable SRAM 12 speed mountain cassettes. I would be surprised if Shimano 12 speed road cassettes didn't continue this trend.
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Old 06-17-20, 07:28 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
Shimano 12 speed mountain cassettes are about $100 less than comparable SRAM 12 speed mountain cassettes. I would be surprised if Shimano 12 speed road cassettes didn't continue this trend.
Do SRAM and Campag 12 cassettes interchange the way 11 speed does now?
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Old 06-17-20, 07:37 AM
  #32  
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From my brief research, I see a big difference in price between an XT and XTR cassette, like twice the price. I see XT priced similar to sram force or Campy chorus and xtr priced similar to SRAM red and Campy super record. You will pay a steep price to save a little weight.
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Old 06-17-20, 07:39 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
Wait until shimano 12 comes out. Their microspline cassettes won't be all that cheap either.

Buying all the parts included in a groupo separately does not cost 2-3 times as much.

I paid significantly less for chorus 12 than a chorus 11 group from 2018.

Force and chorus 12 cassettes cost about the same, but both are much higher priced than 11 speed. Riding 5000 miles a year, you should get 3 years from a cassette. Tires and chains will cost more.
That is not what I said. I said a 12s chorus cassette is 3x the price of a 11s Ultegra and a rear DR is about 2x. That to me sounds expensive, - not cheap as someone claimed above.

Im sure 12s Shimano road will be more expensive than 11s, obviously, But judging by their 12s mtb parts they'll still be significantly cheaper than 12s campy and 12s Sram.

Last edited by Racing Dan; 06-17-20 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 06-17-20, 07:52 AM
  #34  
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" Riding 5000 miles a year, you should get 3 years from a cassette."

Sure, your cassette last forever cos´ its campy! :-)
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Old 06-17-20, 08:09 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
From my brief research, I see a big difference in price between an XT and XTR cassette, like twice the price. I see XT priced similar to sram force or Campy chorus and xtr priced similar to SRAM red and Campy super record. You will pay a steep price to save a little weight.
SLX for $108 or XT for $155 are the best values. A SRAM XG cassette is. $194.

Just as a Shimano vs Sram price comparison a SRAM XG-1299 cassette retails for $442, and a Shimano XTR cassette retails for $314
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Old 06-17-20, 08:12 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
" Riding 5000 miles a year, you should get 3 years from a cassette."
An Ultegra 11spd cassette normally lasts me 20-25k miles, but YMMV.
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Old 06-17-20, 08:25 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
An Ultegra 11spd cassette normally lasts me 20-25k miles, but YMMV.
Im sure ppl have wildly different perspectives and definitions of "worn out". Surely the performance of the parts degrade long before 25k miles, negating the benefit of high $ parts in the first place. Id say you are likely far better off riding tiagra or 105, replacing parts far more often.
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Old 06-17-20, 08:57 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
Im sure ppl have wildly different perspectives and definitions of "worn out". Surely the performance of the parts degrade long before 25k miles, negating the benefit of high $ parts in the first place. Id say you are likely far better off riding tiagra or 105, replacing parts far more often.
Tiagra isn't an option for anyone on 11 speed.

I usually get 2 years from a cassette(20-24k miles) and go through 7-8 chains over that time period.
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Old 06-17-20, 01:46 PM
  #39  
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I really have no idea how many miles you could get from a 12 speed cassette, since it's not been out long. Using the 11 speed example above, I assume that each of 8 chains used in 20,000 miles is tossed a bit prematurely and the cassette's life ends when a new chain skips on one or more of the most worn sprockets.

My speculative example for chorus 12 assumes that only 4 or 5 chains are each used for around 3500 miles, in a rotation. If 8 chains were used, the cassette life might go up. When a chain rotation is used, new-chain skip never occurs because each chain starts its life with about 500 miles of break-in and all chains get this mileage before the second rotation begins. Each chain can be used longer because you're not removing and tossing them prematurely in an attempt to avoid new-chain skip.
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Old 06-17-20, 07:09 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
Tiagra isn't an option for anyone on 11 speed.

I usually get 2 years from a cassette(20-24k miles) and go through 7-8 chains over that time period.
I get about same mileage from mine, FWIW.
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Old 06-17-20, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by datlas
I get about same mileage from mine, FWIW.
One time when money was really tight, I really pushed it as far as it could go. After over 30k miles, one cog would start to skip under high loads. I'm sure a new chain on that cassette, would've skipped like crazy in every cog.
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Old 06-17-20, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
One time when money was really tight, I really pushed it as far as it could go. After over 30k miles, one cog would start to skip under high loads. I'm sure a new chain on that cassette, would've skipped like crazy in every cog.
Some cyclists with too much time on their hands rotate older chains to older cassettes. I consider chains a wear item like brake pads and have no problem pitching them when worn.
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Old 06-17-20, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by datlas
Some cyclists with too much time on their hands rotate older chains to older cassettes. I consider chains a wear item like brake pads and have no problem pitching them when worn.
When you work on bicycles for a living, simple maintenance like rotating a chain isn't a big deal.
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Old 06-18-20, 12:03 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by datlas
I get about same mileage from mine, FWIW.

I dont think anyone is disputing you can do that. I have ridden chains and cogs way past their prime too. Its just, from my experience at least, that "performance" and "smoothness" is lost long before components start skipping/stops working all together. I honestly completely fail to understand why you would push components THAT far, when you could just get a fresh 105 cassette and chain for less than $100,-. Of course monetary constraints may apply, but then why are we even debating (semi) high end bike components. If you are broke you are better off with sora or tiagra, not campy 12s or Ultegra, imo.
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Old 06-18-20, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
I really have no idea how many miles you could get from a 12 speed cassette, since it's not been out long. Using the 11 speed example above, I assume that each of 8 chains used in 20,000 miles is tossed a bit prematurely and the cassette's life ends when a new chain skips on one or more of the most worn sprockets.

My speculative example for chorus 12 assumes that only 4 or 5 chains are each used for around 3500 miles, in a rotation. If 8 chains were used, the cassette life might go up. When a chain rotation is used, new-chain skip never occurs because each chain starts its life with about 500 miles of break-in and all chains get this mileage before the second rotation begins. Each chain can be used longer because you're not removing and tossing them prematurely in an attempt to avoid new-chain skip.
Does anyone actually rotate chains or is it just something to talk about on the forums?

You may not get new chain skip rotating, but you seem to forget that riding elongated chains will equally destroy your chain rings as it will a cassette. - or if you discard the chain(s) before they elongate you wont get chain skip either. Whats the point then?
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Old 06-18-20, 07:31 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
Does anyone actually rotate chains or is it just something to talk about on the forums?

You may not get new chain skip rotating, but you seem to forget that riding elongated chains will equally destroy your chain rings as it will a cassette. - or if you discard the chain(s) before they elongate you wont get chain skip either. Whats the point then?
Yes, people do rotate chains. If you discard chains prematurely, you WILL still get chain skip eventually and spend far more on chains, in the long run. Cheap chains like the KMC x11.93 will elongate quickly and die a quick death. A Campy 12 chain will show little elongation at the mileage that ends a cheap chain's life. With chains that elongate little, roller wear should be monitored, because excessive roller wear can also cause new-chain skip. Campy actually recommends discarding a chain when a caliper reading between rollers reaches 132.6mm or 5.220 inches. At that point, the elongation, measured with a precision rule or full length will show less than .25% elongation. Most of the increase in length is wear on the holes in the rollers. A new chain will measu I've measured less than .25% after 6000 miles with a Campy 10 chain, but it should have been tossed long before that. It caused no damage to my chain rings.

A new Campy chain will measure 5.185-5.190 inches when new, so 5.220 is about a .6% increase, but that increase is not a measurement of elongation. You'd do as well to check between the outer plates on any two rollers. With a chain rotation, I'd use the chains longer. I also check side clearance with feeler gauges. The chain that I used for 6,000 miles had twice the side clearance of a new chain.
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Old 06-18-20, 08:27 AM
  #47  
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Just buy a nice 12 groupset from Campy, it's been out for about a year now. If you buy carefully from Europe you can get yours for a very competitive price. I got my Record 12 groupset from bike24 for less than $1,300.
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Old 06-18-20, 10:44 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
I bought two chorus 12 groups for the price of one force AXS group.
Perhaps, but if Dura-Ace 12sp is an option, then I don't think the price matters a whole lot.
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Old 06-19-20, 02:31 PM
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Record 12 comes up to $1,297.00 and Chorus 12 is $939 at Bike24. Campy has become very competitive lately.
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