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80's Italian Bike but want to upgrade to Campy Index Shifting

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80's Italian Bike but want to upgrade to Campy Index Shifting

Old 07-02-20, 08:39 PM
  #101  
Miele Man
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I agree that the chain is too short. I'd add a couple of links. You can use another quick-link to do that.

My method for figuring out chain length is adjust the derailleur without the chain on it, then I move the derailleur to the biggest cog and the front derailleur to the biggest chainring, then I feed the chain over the cog and chainring and check that the derailleur cage is no more than 45 degrees. I then join the chain with a quick-link and check to be sure the chain is not too long. For me this way takes out all the guesswork.

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Old 07-03-20, 07:55 AM
  #102  
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Looking at your rear derailleur pics, it appears that the inner cage may be mounted reversed...i.e. you have the top at the bottom and the bottom at the top. You said that you had it off and it's easy to reverse it, I did it once (he said sheepishly). When mine was reversed it definitely messed with the shifting.

It should look like this, the larger part is at the bottom.


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Old 07-03-20, 11:40 AM
  #103  
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First off, the chain is indeed way too short. You have already seen the suggested Campagnolo spec with the chain in small/small, so go by that.

Originally Posted by Choke
Looking at your rear derailleur pics, it appears that the inner cage may be mounted reversed...i.e. you have the top at the bottom and the bottom at the top. You said that you had it off and it's easy to reverse it, I did it once (he said sheepishly). When mine was reversed it definitely messed with the shifting.

It should look like this, the larger part is at the bottom.
This too. It's very easy to put it back on the wrong way, and I've purchased at least two (maybe three, can't remember) used Campagnolo derailleurs that were shipped to me with the rear cage plate on the wrong way around.
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Old 07-03-20, 07:19 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
Long cage Campagnolo rear derailleurs are also available, which let the cassette sprocket range under Campagnolo control be as wide as 13-29 (Campy's widest "vintage" range) or may be a tiny bit wider.
A short cage Campy 10sp will work fine with a 13-29....I'm running that setup and I know loads of others who do as well. The long cage is only needed for a triple or bigger cogs in the back, though I know of people who have used a Wolftooth Roadlink and short cage Campy with 34T cogs.

Campy also made a 12-30 10sp cassette.
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Old 07-04-20, 02:05 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by Choke
Looking at your rear derailleur pics, it appears that the inner cage may be mounted reversed...i.e. you have the top at the bottom and the bottom at the top. You said that you had it off and it's easy to reverse it, I did it once (he said sheepishly). When mine was reversed it definitely messed with the shifting.

It should look like this, the larger part is at the bottom.



No. I don't think it is. I admit I had a fun time trying to figure out the correct way to mount the inner cage but pretty sure this is correct. Again, since it's not the correct cage, it looks different, especially from the front side.





I also noticed the RD attachment mount on the frame may be bent slightly. My frame is a 126mm rear spacing and so it is pulled out to accommodate 130mm of current standards and I think at some point the mounting angle became compromised. Not sure of the best way to bend it back as these old steel frames are still plenty stiff.
As I continue to ride, the shifting is pretty good although not perfect. It sometimes shifts two gears with one click and sometimes doesn't shift at all. I've tried adjusting the cable tension and I suspect that is the key although it could also be the bent RD mount and the inner cage. When adjusting cable tension, how much adjustment is necessary to achieve a different result? I mean is it generally several turns or maybe just a half turn? I do notice the adjustments doing things but not sure if I'm going too far the other way as it never completely solves the problems.

Ha, and another Classically Vintage problem last ride: I decided to dig out my old Duegi shoes and Look pedals and watch my efficiency climb. First problem was the cleats were at some strange angle which just could not be tolerated. So back home I go for wrenches and when I try to get my feet out, wow, very strong hold which I don't remember. So after several times of twisting out of the pedals, boom, the retro Italian glue lets go!
Fun thing is that I kinda like these shoes now! I never liked them back in the day and only bought them on a Nashbar closeout deal but now I like the vintage look of them. Still, gives me another thing to search for on Ebay!

Of course, will try some good ole contact cement although not a fun thing if it tears loose again far away from home!



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Old 07-04-20, 02:28 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by tNuvolari
No. I don't think it is. I admit I had a fun time trying to figure out the correct way to mount the inner cage but pretty sure this is correct. Again, since it's not the correct cage, it looks different, especially from the front side.





I also noticed the RD attachment mount on the frame may be bent slightly. My frame is a 126mm rear spacing and so it is pulled out to accommodate 130mm of current standards and I think at some point the mounting angle became compromised. Not sure of the best way to bend it back as these old steel frames are still plenty stiff.
As I continue to ride, the shifting is pretty good although not perfect. It sometimes shifts two gears with one click and sometimes doesn't shift at all. I've tried adjusting the cable tension and I suspect that is the key although it could also be the bent RD mount and the inner cage. When adjusting cable tension, how much adjustment is necessary to achieve a different result? I mean is it generally several turns or maybe just a half turn? I do notice the adjustments doing things but not sure if I'm going too far the other way as it never completely solves the problems.
Ahh....I missed the part about the wrong cage. Yes, that one is mounted correctly.

The best way to fix your derailleur hanger is with the proper tool.....a good shop should have one.

Even a half turn is too much to adjust cable tension on an index system; try 1/4 turn or even less.
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Old 07-08-20, 12:42 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Choke
Ahh....I missed the part about the wrong cage. Yes, that one is mounted correctly.

The best way to fix your derailleur hanger is with the proper tool.....a good shop should have one.

Even a half turn is too much to adjust cable tension on an index system; try 1/4 turn or even less.
Thanks for the detail about a quarter turn or less; that really helped. It's now working better, maybe still not perfectly, but better. I think I need to go back and reset the RD as Campy describes by setting rear cable adjuster with RD on 4th cog. But I really like the Ergo shifters. It is so nice to have them at my fingertips for instant gear changes. I change gears now so often that I wonder how I was even riding before!

Has anyone on here used the Campy Ergo Brain? it looks pretty cool and I like how it knows what gear you're in always. I know, how hard is it to look down and check but it's actually not so easy with a 10 speed as the cogs are so close. I don't like that the Ergo Brain isn't wireless; once you go wireless, it's tough to go back. I'm also looking to find some Record Pro Fit pedals and new shoes (I glued the old Duegis pictured above but the glue didn't take) so I can go clipless. Do the Pro Fit Plus pedals work well? The metal pedal part always seems to be eroded on used ones but not sure if that effects structural strength or if it's simply aesthetic.

Thanks for the help, Choke. I'm really enjoying this bike with all the new bits on it. And it's always fun to order new parts! I have 2 titanium bolts coming today for the stem as the ones that came on it are rusty and crusty. And who doesn't love titanium? It's nice when waiting on a <$10 package makes you happy, isn't it?
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Old 07-21-20, 11:43 PM
  #108  
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Well, this thread has evolved into a build thread so my newest addition is a pair of Record Titanium Pro Fit pedals. They are pretty light at 266gm for the pair but still not sure about them yet. My main complaint is they don't rotate to a given spot when disengaged. In other words when you stop and take your foot out, the pedal just randomly floats so that when trying to engage again, it's never easy. This is probably a factor of the light weight in that they don't have enough weight to rotate on the axle. Or maybe my bearings need some service.
Also, the obvious issue these pedals have is with the finish. The clear coat disintegrates and the they tend to look nasty. Mine are better than some I've seen and on closer inspection, it appears the problem is strictly with the finish and that the aluminum which makes up the structure is not affected.
The cleats are unique too in that the metal engaging part is a separate piece from the plastic main part. It's tough to tell in the pics and it's even harder to tell when buying replacement parts. It looks like the metal cleat part will last forever; the main wear seems to be the spring on the pedal from engaging/disengaging and the plastic cleat from walking.
Also, I tried riding with normal shoes and I couldn't. I had to switch the pedals back to my old pedals with toe clips just to go pick up some food. I remember riding the Looks with normal shoes without much of a problem but the Campy's are so small that my sneakers just slipped the bike was pretty much unrideable. Also, it was very difficult to rotate the pedal to the correct upright orientation with sneakers and I'm not sure it even mattered. Either way, my shoes just slipped I could barely ride the bike. Perhaps a different shoe with different sole would be different but I just switched pedals.



Pretty...and not pretty at the same time due to the finish degradation.



Underside shows there is no wasted metal.



The 2 piece cleat. The metal part looks like it'll never need replacing and luckily my seller included all the cleat parts with the sale.



Compared to my old Looks, the Pro Fits are much smaller and lighter.



You can see the metal engaging spring here which takes most of the wear. Mine are about half worn through.



The spring tension is adjustable and even though mine are well used, I have the tension at full soft. Oh, be sure to carry that Allen wrench on the first ride and start at full soft or you might be pulling a Dali stop where you just fall over.

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Old 08-04-20, 10:42 PM
  #109  
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So I bought a pair of SiDi shoes and wow, what a great investment! I'd been searching Ebay non stop for a pair at an affordable price in my size but nothing was showing up. I had watched a well used (grubby) pair but wasn't really interested. The poor pair went through 2 auctions and no one else seemed to want them either. And they were starting at $17! So I did some research and found that they were one of the higher ranges with all the good stuff. The model is Ergo 3 and they have four different adjustments: a velcro toe strap, a BOA arch middle adjustment, a wide SiDi buckle strap and an adjustable heel feature. Ok, so they are a bit ratty. But all the straps work and they are relatively free of any overly worn concerns. The only issue is wear of the fabric on the heel and a few cracks in the plastic of the heel adjuster. But once I put them on, wow, these are pretty nice! So comfortable and adjustable everywhere! The only problem I have is that the heel is pretty narrow even at the loosest adjustment. I can't imagine tightening the heel at all so I'm confused at the adjustment. Does anyone have experience with this heel adjustment?

Oh, and SiDi sizes do run small. I feared 43 would be too big for my size 9 foot but in fact the length is perfect and the width is fairly narrow. And I have a narrow foot. They came with no insole so I threw in an insole I have which is not a SiDi insole. Still wondering if I should invest in the proper Sidi insole or not.

Anyway, here are some pics:



Sidi Ergo 3's: Well worn but still loved.



The three major adjustments. I especially love the BOA arch tightener.



You can see the heel wear here. And my real leather Pedag insole. I love these as they have a big metatarsal support.



Real carbon soles and venting which I can't say I noticed.
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Old 08-04-20, 11:12 PM
  #110  
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The insoles that came with my Sidi Dominators long ago were worthless - Flat, thin sheets of foam with a Sidi insignia. I used green (thin) in them with great comfort for 14 years. Then my foot shape changed! Dang!
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Old 08-05-20, 01:12 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by Dfrost
The insoles that came with my Sidi Dominators long ago were worthless - Flat, thin sheets of foam with a Sidi insignia. I used green (thin) in them with great comfort for 14 years. Then my foot shape changed! Dang!
Thanks for the info on the sidi insoles, I was wondering what they were like. They do have a couple different versions. Were your's the solid blue ones?

I'm wondering if my heel issues are caused by my thicker insole but you can see from the overhead shot how narrow the heel is.
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Old 08-05-20, 03:19 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by tNuvolari
Thanks for the info on the sidi insoles, I was wondering what they were like. They do have a couple different versions. Were your's the solid blue ones?

I'm wondering if my heel issues are caused by my thicker insole but you can see from the overhead shot how narrow the heel is.
My Dominators, purchased in 2001, were black with the ratcheting upper strap, but the Velcro straps pulled to the inside. BTW, spare parts for those upper ratchet systems, including longer straps, are available, although maybe not in silver. The straps DO wear out eventually by allowing slippage in the ratchet.

Looks like I forgot one Important word in my prior post: green (thin) “Superfeet” insoles. Lots of thicknesses available.
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Old 08-13-20, 05:12 PM
  #113  
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First off, I'm loving these Sidi shoes! I had a small problem where I was having slight heel irritation. The heel felt too narrow and was causing irritation but then I was experimenting with different tensions on the straps and I found that if I ran with the shoes a bit tighter than I liked, my heel had no irritation. I think my heel was moving slightly and rubbing but when I tightened the upper strap it would not allow for my foot to move at all and therefore my heel stays put. Also, I was having slight numbness in my toes but again I found if I tightened the toe strap and the arch strap, it lessened the numbness. Not sure why exactly but there you have it. I tend to wear my street shoes rather loose so any kind of tight shoe feels foreign at first but even when tight the shoes are still amazingly comfortable and then once I start riding, the tightness disappears.



Secondly, the Campy Pro-Fit pedals are still difficult to engage. Once in awhile I'll get it on first try but more often I'm struggling across the intersection looking like I just got the bike. It's horrible when I forget to shift to a lower gear and then stop as once the first pedal stroke happens, it turns into struggling to stay up and find the proper cleat/pedal relationship. And then most times I end up having to look down to find the pedal top. The problem is that they don't self-center in any way and without looking, I can't tell by feel when the pedal is upright or not; it feels the same. This never happened with Looks mostly because they always end up in the same position so you know without looking how to engage. Maybe that's why they're called Looks!

Does anyone know if it's normal for the Campy's to rotate randomly or should they always return to the same position? They're super light and the bearings have the slightest tension, not so much that they feel like there's an issue but enough to not let them spin around to where the pedal is positioned correctly.



And finally, I was having problems with my Athena 6 speed chainrings. The chain would sometimes spin in between the rings instead of shifting to the smaller ring. So I got some 10 speed chain rings and also went from 53/42 to 53/39 which I figure will help on hills with my biggest cog of 25. I installed it today and went for a quick spin and, wow, does it shift quickly now! Before it was always a bit of a fight and now, boom, shift. Well done, Campy! I've been riding the last month or so only on my 42 ring and now I have the option of the two so I'll have to relearn all my shifting. I'll have to wait and see if the switch to the 39 is noticeable or not.

And some pics. I bought a whole crankset to get the rings as it was a better deal so now I have a grey Centaur crank with no rings if anyone needs one. It's 172.5mm and in very good condition. Looks like it's been mounted but barely ridden as it has no scratching or gouging from curb climbing or shoe rubbing.


The original 53/42 Athena rings for 6-8 speed but too widely spaced for a 10 speed chain.



The Centaur 10 speed Ultra 53/39 rings. Not sure about the mismatched colors but I can live with it, especially in light of how much better the shifting is now.



Barely used Ebay special.



Bought the whole crank so I have this now to part with: Centaur grey 172.5mm crank, just the 2 arms. No center bolts, no chainring bolts.



Excellent condition, front and back.



No Knicks or curb gouging at all.

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Old 08-14-20, 06:26 AM
  #114  
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tNuvolari Nice thread! Congrats on your efforts. I did much the same on a De Rosa.
I started a thread to find out how to use that bellows and pigtail. Didn't get the response you did. Good to know. I may install it now. Campy instructions with the cable set didn't address it.
WRT Ergo performance. The difference between the range of Gen II Ergos for Chorus and Record are the labels. Doen't really matter what is printed on the levers or the bodies. I did not read every entry in the thread after my last posting here, so my next comment may be moot. The shifting problem you mentioned was much like the one I had. Rebuilding the levelers exposed a broken carrier. Unlike some who suggested minimal lubrication, I did the opposite. I lubed every moving part with Campy grease I have from 1980, which is still good. It shifts quietly and easily comparted to the Gen I 8v levers, which have not been taken apart. Both Gen I and Gen II use the same g springs but you need the left G spring set for the right lever, IIRC.

Have fun with your build. The De Rosa is the most fun bike to ride for me. I am convinced I need to inspect the 8V Ergos for lubrication and possible service.
If you haven't already cruised through my build, it is here https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...-rosa-pro.html.
somewhere near the end I listed all my associated threads to address my problems.
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Old 08-19-20, 12:19 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by SJX426
tNuvolari Nice thread! Congrats on your efforts. I did much the same on a De Rosa.
I started a thread to find out how to use that bellows and pigtail. Didn't get the response you did. Good to know. I may install it now. Campy instructions with the cable set didn't address it.
WRT Ergo performance. The difference between the range of Gen II Ergos for Chorus and Record are the labels. Doen't really matter what is printed on the levers or the bodies. I did not read every entry in the thread after my last posting here, so my next comment may be moot. The shifting problem you mentioned was much like the one I had. Rebuilding the levelers exposed a broken carrier. Unlike some who suggested minimal lubrication, I did the opposite. I lubed every moving part with Campy grease I have from 1980, which is still good. It shifts quietly and easily comparted to the Gen I 8v levers, which have not been taken apart. Both Gen I and Gen II use the same g springs but you need the left G spring set for the right lever, IIRC.

Have fun with your build. The De Rosa is the most fun bike to ride for me. I am convinced I need to inspect the 8V Ergos for lubrication and possible service.
If you haven't already cruised through my build, it is here https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...-rosa-pro.html.
somewhere near the end I listed all my associated threads to address my problems.
Yes, I've been following your build as we were at very similar stages throughout and I secretly pine for a De Rosa frame, once I find one for a couple hundred bucks, ha ha.
As for my shifters, they are working very well these days, not 100% but good enough and with a few quirks to let you know they are definitely Italian! Most of my trouble was caused by my RD rear casing being too long. Once I shortened that a bit, the shifting improved.
I think I posted some comments about my pigtail on your thread. Mine is working well and seems to be ok with the old frame and incorrect cable guide. I also have a step down ferrule that should go on and hold things in place better although, like I said, there doesn't seem to be an issue as it is now. I was waiting to put the ferrule on as I was looking for a Record Titanium RD with carbon cage to replace my Chorus but a couple of them have slipped through my grasp and the Chorus is working well so haven't been too concerned lately.

I'm sure my Ergos could use rebuilding but I thought I would try them as purchased first and they are working. I'm sure I'll replace the springs once I run out of other things to replace on the bike. I am getting a used Ergo Brain tomorrow so now I'll have that to play with.

Oh, about the Pro-Fit pedals: I purchased a set of Centaur Pro-Fit Plus pedals for parts. The bearings seem smoother and the pedals spin much easier and the pedals do in fact center like a good pedal should. So I bolted them on and expected easy pedal engaging with the Centaurs....Well, not quite! They do rotate and center which you would think would allow easy engagement but they spin so easily that when trying to engage, they end up spinning too far and then it's the same story of trying to find the top of the pedal to lock in to. I still had to look down and find the pedal and the Centaurs didn't really make it any easier. What is the secret of these pedals? I'm not getting any better at engaging them so I don't think it's a matter of getting used to them. Arghhh, maybe Looks are the way to go.
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Old 08-19-20, 05:21 AM
  #116  
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tNuvolari RD casing too long? Before or after the BB? Interesting to know.
I am at the same state on the 8V shifters. It is a fair amount of effort to remove all the cables. I have motivation with the need to replace the stem with a shorter one. With the price of tape, I always hesitate.

WRT pedals. My first set of pedals with any retention were on my UO-8 back in the late 60's. It was challenging to learn how to just tip the back of the pedal enough to slide the shoe in the trap. In the beginning it always was accompanied with looking down. Lots of scrapes on the top of the cage!

I have lots of spd pedals picked up off CL. Pretty much standardized on Look Keo's for my main rides. Different approach from the old days, exact opposite actually as getting under the back of the pedal to rotate it enough to clip in. 50% success so far. I wish I could feel which side of the pedal my toe is under!
I have found new Keo's for under $40. Use the 4* float cleat with good success. I have SIDI shoes too. Picked them off CL in like new condition. Had to replace the liner to get comfortable.

Going to add more to my thread on handlebar, stem and tape.

Enjoy your Torpado!
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Old 08-19-20, 10:25 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by tNuvolari
Hmmm, so how many places have the rig? Do I need to worry about this or just true it at the LBS?





If anyone has the link, I'd love to read it. I'm guessing the big difference is weight. I think the Aelle frame weighs almost 2 lbs more than an SL. That's what I remember reading awhile back but I could be wrong.


So I finally got my rear wheel and 10 speed cassette on the bike. I took a quick spin around the block, breaking curfew...ha ha, and it shifts so smoothly and quickly. Also, the lever travel is very slight so a gear change comes with barely a flick. I'm still using the 10 speed gears/Chorus RD with the old friction DT shifters and cables. I still have to find a left Ergo lever and new bars and stem before I make the switch to index.
The friction lever can barely control all 10 speeds. See the picture of the lever on the 25 tooth gear to see what I mean.
And there is absolutely no overshifting required. You just barely move the lever and there's a soft click and then new gear. It's a nice feel, very low spring effort to counter. I could live with it but I still want the levers on the bars. And since the toggle is so slight for a gear change, it can be tough to click off a single gear and find the proper gear you want.
Still not really a ride so I'll see how it goes on a real ride as soon as the events calm down a bit. Oh, and there's no curfew.
Stay safe everyone! And some pics:



10 speeds, 12-25, where 6 were.



Yes, I know, the cable....It's all I've got right now.




The right lever where it needs to be for the big rear cog. Good thing I didn't go for 11 speed!


Oh, about the chain. I bought a Veloce 10 speed chain and a KMC missing link. I also bought an amazon generic chain breaker, missing link opener/closer and chain measurement checker. But after reading the Campy instructions, they are very adamant that the master link never be removed and in order to use the KMC Missing Link, I would have needed to remove the Campy master link. So I thought I would just try and use my chain breaker with the Campy pin. And it all worked fine, very easy and no trouble at all. I'm not sure what all the talk about having to use the Campy chain breaker is about. Is my chain going to self destruct now? I can always use the Missing Link later if I need to. And not sure why I have never read that anyone had ever used a standard chain tool on Campy chains but I haven't so I thought it physically was completely different and would never work.

Also, I had read that the sticky lubricant that comes on the chain should be removed and the chain oiled/lubed with your favorite lubricant so I wiped a bunch of it off. Then I came across Sheldon Brown's page about how the lubricant that comes on chains is far better than any other type and that it is completely inside the chain so you should just use it straight from the box as is until it gets dirty and wears off.
So what is the general consensus about all this?
The article is called "Magnificent Seven." Google that.
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Old 08-24-20, 01:33 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
The article is called "Magnificent Seven." Google that.
Link to article:

https://www.thetallcyclist.com/wp-con...Seven-Test.pdf

Found it! Thanks. Interesting....and then a bit confusing, especially with regard to the SLX frame being so weak. I guess the Aelle tubing isn't so bad, both in weight and stiffness. My bike feels very stiff, or at least it transfers every bump and road imperfection. Also, it's very darty and doesn't feel stable until a higher speed, but that's all probably due more to the frame's geometry than tubing. Of course, I haven't ridden any other decent bikes to compare so that makes describing it rather dubious. I know it's not easy to ride and I don't dare take my hands off the bars at any time or it feels like it might just fly off the road. It's better at higher speeds and the handling is pretty good meaning it doesn't do anything wrong in the turns but it also seems a bit vague in relaying information and I'm never quite sure how much grip I have or how much further I can lean. I would think a great bike would tell you things more but again, I could be way off. Guess I need another bike so I can compare....

Originally Posted by SJX426
tNuvolari RD casing too long? Before or after the BB? Interesting to know.
I am at the same state on the 8V shifters. It is a fair amount of effort to remove all the cables. I have motivation with the need to replace the stem with a shorter one. With the price of tape, I always hesitate.

WRT pedals. My first set of pedals with any retention were on my UO-8 back in the late 60's. It was challenging to learn how to just tip the back of the pedal enough to slide the shoe in the trap. In the beginning it always was accompanied with looking down. Lots of scrapes on the top of the cage!

I have lots of spd pedals picked up off CL. Pretty much standardized on Look Keo's for my main rides. Different approach from the old days, exact opposite actually as getting under the back of the pedal to rotate it enough to clip in. 50% success so far. I wish I could feel which side of the pedal my toe is under!
I have found new Keo's for under $40. Use the 4* float cleat with good success. I have SIDI shoes too. Picked them off CL in like new condition. Had to replace the liner to get comfortable.
The casing I'm referring to is the last bit of short casing that goes from the chain stay and rotates 180 degrees around to the RD.

I use Cinelli cork ribbon on the bars. I love the feel and you can unwrap and wrap many times. Sometimes it tears or stretches but once you rewrap it, it always seems to look good. I admit it is stressful and I hate unwrapping. I just did it this weekend as I picked up a Campy Ergo Brain computer and it has switches that go in the brake levers. Geez, though, a lot of work to install the most confusing computer ever! Not sure how long I'll end up keeping it on there and then it will one more time to unwrap/wrap the tape!

And still not sure about the Pro-Fits. I almost went over on my last ride when my foot slipped off the pedal while trying to engage, causing my other foot to come unclipped also and then both feet slipped off the pedals until I could stop. It really shouldn't be this difficult. Something about getting the front of the cleat in its slot that is just not easy. The Looks were always so easy once you got the pedal turned up.

What's the difference between the Keo's and the earlier Look design?

And still loving the Sidi's! Mine came without any insoles but I've heard the Sidi insoles are nothing special. I used a German leather insole that I've grown to love in most of my normal shoes. It has a pronounced metatarsal hump which is great once you get used to it. And something about the leather just feels perfect! They are called Pedal Viva. I prefer the Pedag Magic Step Plus but that version was a bit too thick for the Sidi shoes.
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Old 08-24-20, 07:29 PM
  #119  
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Hi, I think you said you are able to tip your toe into a toeclip with strap with some degree of consistency. I would stick with that skill until your feet are a little more used to finding the pedal without looking much, and you get under way in just 2 or 3 crank strokes. Try to develop this skill without any cleats, just shoe, pedal, strap, clip (many call it the "cage" these days). Also while you're training this way, don't tighten the strap. One thing at a time.
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Old 08-24-20, 07:50 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by tNuvolari
Link to article:

https://www.thetallcyclist.com/wp-con...Seven-Test.pdf

Found it! Thanks. Interesting....and then a bit confusing, especially with regard to the SLX frame being so weak. I guess the Aelle tubing isn't so bad, both in weight and stiffness. My bike feels very stiff, or at least it transfers every bump and road imperfection. Also, it's very darty and doesn't feel stable until a higher speed, but that's all probably due more to the frame's geometry than tubing. Of course, I haven't ridden any other decent bikes to compare so that makes describing it rather dubious. I know it's not easy to ride and I don't dare take my hands off the bars at any time or it feels like it might just fly off the road. It's better at higher speeds and the handling is pretty good meaning it doesn't do anything wrong in the turns but it also seems a bit vague in relaying information and I'm never quite sure how much grip I have or how much further I can lean. I would think a great bike would tell you things more but again, I could be way off. Guess I need another bike so I can compare....
I haven't re-read it for a while, so I can't track back through your comment about SLX being "weak." If I recall, the tester did not crack or break any of the frames, so there is no real concern with actual weakness. A flexy feeling doesn't necesarily mean breakage is on its way. . I do recall the reviewer didn't like how all of them rode. Those bikes are built by Mondonico. I have one in SL and right now think it's one of my best frames, second only to my other Mondonico, an ELOS. The tester did not like ELOS particularly. I don't agree, but I have any problem with his opinions. I like a softer frame, and I assume he thought the stiffer Aelle-tubed model was better, but we all have our opinions. It's even possible that if another builder had built all 7 frames, the tester's opinions might have been different.

A lot of people like SLX. I'm not sure how different it is from the older SL and how much good slightly thicker butts is able to do, so I don't really have an opinion. But I think it is totally worth reading for a study of opinions about different frames.

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Old 08-25-20, 04:40 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
Hi, I think you said you are able to tip your toe into a toeclip with strap with some degree of consistency. I would stick with that skill until your feet are a little more used to finding the pedal without looking much, and you get under way in just 2 or 3 crank strokes. Try to develop this skill without any cleats, just shoe, pedal, strap, clip (many call it the "cage" these days). Also while you're training this way, don't tighten the strap. One thing at a time.
Ha, no, I'm not completely uncoordinated. In fact, I can play drums and always have owned manual transmission cars with which I can heel & toe, left foot brake, etc. And I've never had trouble with Looks. Ok, maybe in the beginning but even then, I remember a short learned period to get used to them. But these Campy's are just awkward! I am getting used to them but what that actually means is that I'm getting used to very start being awkward and slow. Traditionally, I like to leap across intersections, ahead of traffic and pedestrians but with the Pro-Fits, I have to just take the time to engage and then get on with it. Sometimes it's on the first try but more often it's after struggling a bit and sometimes it's plain awful, taking the entire intersection to get the cleat in there. But it has to be done so now I'm not rushing it when I don't engage it on the first try. I really hate looking down though but it does come to that many times. Oh, well, I'll see how good I get at it and decide from there if a switch to Looks is the way to go.


Originally Posted by Road Fan
I haven't re-read it for a while, so I can't track back through your comment about SLX being "weak." If I recall, the tester did not crack or break any of the frames, so there is no real concern with actual weakness. A flexy feeling doesn't necesarily mean breakage is on its way. . I do recall the reviewer didn't like how all of them rode. Those bikes are built by Mondonico. I have one in SL and right now think it's one of my best frames, second only to my other Mondonico, an ELOS. The tester did not like ELOS particularly. I don't agree, but I have any problem with his opinions. I like a softer frame, and I assume he thought the stiffer Aelle-tubed model was better, but we all have our opinions. It's even possible that if another builder had built all 7 frames, the tester's opinions might have been different.

A lot of people like SLX. I'm not sure how different it is from the older SL and how much good slightly thicker butts is able to do, so I don't really have an opinion. But I think it is totally worth reading for a study of opinions about different frames.
I completely used the wrong word there with my choice of "weak." The old brain ain't what she used to be sometimes....I should have said flimsy or flexible. He states that the SLX frame flexes and I would have thought it would have been one of the stiffest. I so wish that an SL frame was included though. That's the frame I always want to try. But I guess the newer designs with oversize tubing is tough to argue with when it comes to stiffness. It is interesting how similar they are and yet the rider can still feel some differences. I just hope they labeled them correctly from Mondonico.
Yes, definitely an interesting read but it points me to the timeless phrase that a little learning is a dangerous thing....
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Old 08-26-20, 03:40 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by tNuvolari
Ha, no, I'm not completely uncoordinated. In fact, I can play drums and always have owned manual transmission cars with which I can heel & toe, left foot brake, etc. And I've never had trouble with Looks. Ok, maybe in the beginning but even then, I remember a short learned period to get used to them. But these Campy's are just awkward! I am getting used to them but what that actually means is that I'm getting used to very start being awkward and slow. Traditionally, I like to leap across intersections, ahead of traffic and pedestrians but with the Pro-Fits, I have to just take the time to engage and then get on with it. Sometimes it's on the first try but more often it's after struggling a bit and sometimes it's plain awful, taking the entire intersection to get the cleat in there. But it has to be done so now I'm not rushing it when I don't engage it on the first try. I really hate looking down though but it does come to that many times. Oh, well, I'll see how good I get at it and decide from there if a switch to Looks is the way to go.




I completely used the wrong word there with my choice of "weak." The old brain ain't what she used to be sometimes....I should have said flimsy or flexible. He states that the SLX frame flexes and I would have thought it would have been one of the stiffest. I so wish that an SL frame was included though. That's the frame I always want to try. But I guess the newer designs with oversize tubing is tough to argue with when it comes to stiffness. It is interesting how similar they are and yet the rider can still feel some differences. I just hope they labeled them correctly from Mondonico.
Yes, definitely an interesting read but it points me to the timeless phrase that a little learning is a dangerous thing....
The point was to have a blind test where tester could not tell what he was riding, so no tubing stickers were put on. To see if the reality of the more exotic steels was really distinct.

Last edited by Road Fan; 08-26-20 at 03:44 AM.
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