Campagnolo Asymmetrical BB - Easy solution or am I missing something?
10-18-13, 01:47 PM
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Campagnolo Asymmetrical BB - Easy solution or am I missing something?
I'm building my first retro project, and faced with the issue of damaged threads in the BB shell, I have decided to go with a cartridge threadless BB. That's the easy stuff, I think. Now, I'm looking for a chainset/crankset from about late 70s/early 80s, and ideally I'd like to go with Campagnolo, but the issue of asymmetrical BBs is scaring me, especially as I want to use a cheap threadless bb (not Phil Woods) all of which are symmetrical.
Here is question (and my solution - is it too easy?) :
If I can figure out the offset (in mm) in the asymmetrical BB that I should use for a particular Campag Chainset, can I simply add that value to overall BB spindle length to come up with a new BB length for the threadless BB?
I know I may have to take spindle taper standards into account as well (but I believe that Campag were close enough to JIS during the period I'm looking at) - also I will be using downtube friction shifters so don't have to worry about the finer tolerances of STI/Index. I also realise that this solution may "push out" the non drive side crank by a few mm more than it should be (but that is a small price to pay for having Campag).
If my solution is looking good, does anyone know where I can get a list of Campagnolo BB specifications which include the offset (or difference between drive side and non drive side spindle lengths).
Thanks in anticipation of any replies (my fall back solution is to go Shimano 600).
Here is question (and my solution - is it too easy?) :
If I can figure out the offset (in mm) in the asymmetrical BB that I should use for a particular Campag Chainset, can I simply add that value to overall BB spindle length to come up with a new BB length for the threadless BB?
I know I may have to take spindle taper standards into account as well (but I believe that Campag were close enough to JIS during the period I'm looking at) - also I will be using downtube friction shifters so don't have to worry about the finer tolerances of STI/Index. I also realise that this solution may "push out" the non drive side crank by a few mm more than it should be (but that is a small price to pay for having Campag).
If my solution is looking good, does anyone know where I can get a list of Campagnolo BB specifications which include the offset (or difference between drive side and non drive side spindle lengths).
Thanks in anticipation of any replies (my fall back solution is to go Shimano 600).
10-18-13, 02:27 PM
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Campagnolo bottom bracket and spindle specifications are a hot mess from the pre-CPSC versions through the early 80s, but perhaps this might help:
10-18-13, 02:30 PM
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I'm building my first retro project, and faced with the issue of damaged threads in the BB shell, I have decided to go with a cartridge threadless BB. That's the easy stuff, I think. Now, I'm looking for a chainset/crankset from about late 70s/early 80s, and ideally I'd like to go with Campagnolo, but the issue of asymmetrical BBs is scaring me, especially as I want to use a cheap threadless bb (not Phil Woods) all of which are symmetrical.
Here is question (and my solution - is it too easy?) :
If I can figure out the offset (in mm) in the asymmetrical BB that I should use for a particular Campag Chainset, can I simply add that value to overall BB spindle length to come up with a new BB length for the threadless BB?
Here is question (and my solution - is it too easy?) :
If I can figure out the offset (in mm) in the asymmetrical BB that I should use for a particular Campag Chainset, can I simply add that value to overall BB spindle length to come up with a new BB length for the threadless BB?
Measure your current spindle to determine offset.
As far as spindle taper compatibility, I will leave that to others.
Last edited by wrk101; 10-18-13 at 07:37 PM.
10-19-13, 03:16 PM
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AlanC8 wrote:
"(but I believe that Campag were close enough to JIS during the period I'm looking at)"
Not so fast, Alan, the taper spec's for campag spindles never varied by much, especially compared to the relatively gross difference between JIS and Campag taper width.
I quoted the following earlier today in another thread, but here it is again. For those that prefer to trust Sutherland's and old Phil catalog pages though, please measure some spindles(!) and see for yourselves.
"How it's done: Measuring a JIS spindle.
Note that the caliper jaws are exactly 3mm thick. The point of measurement is thus exactly 3mm from the end of the spindle.
12.9mm=JIS,
12.75mm is more like ISO and Campy,
Old Stronglite is about 12.67mm.
Dura-Ace 7400 spindle shown.
Lastly, be aware that "offset" specifications typically refer to the amount that the right end of the spindle is longer than the left end of the spindle.
This is quite different than if the entire bb is shifted to the right by the same amount, which will offset the right arm twice as much!
In other words, if you were trying to duplicate the crankarm placement of a 114mm spindle with 1.5mm offset, this could be acieved by installing a symmetric 114mm bottom bracket or spindle with a 0.75mm spacer between the fixed cup flange and the bb shell.
Ordering a new, but different brand and/or vintage of bb/spindle can give you very good control over your crankarm's placement, but only if you take all of the above considerations into account.
But, at the shop level, I don't see this happening except in the case of the very consciencious few, and thus I have to argue for the advice to eyeball and measure (per Bill's advice) the parts you might have on hand and always do a test-fitting where any doubts may exist as to taper, offset or inter-brand spindle compatibility.
"(but I believe that Campag were close enough to JIS during the period I'm looking at)"
Not so fast, Alan, the taper spec's for campag spindles never varied by much, especially compared to the relatively gross difference between JIS and Campag taper width.
I quoted the following earlier today in another thread, but here it is again. For those that prefer to trust Sutherland's and old Phil catalog pages though, please measure some spindles(!) and see for yourselves.
"How it's done: Measuring a JIS spindle.
Note that the caliper jaws are exactly 3mm thick. The point of measurement is thus exactly 3mm from the end of the spindle.
12.9mm=JIS,
12.75mm is more like ISO and Campy,
Old Stronglite is about 12.67mm.
Dura-Ace 7400 spindle shown.
Lastly, be aware that "offset" specifications typically refer to the amount that the right end of the spindle is longer than the left end of the spindle.
This is quite different than if the entire bb is shifted to the right by the same amount, which will offset the right arm twice as much!
In other words, if you were trying to duplicate the crankarm placement of a 114mm spindle with 1.5mm offset, this could be acieved by installing a symmetric 114mm bottom bracket or spindle with a 0.75mm spacer between the fixed cup flange and the bb shell.
Ordering a new, but different brand and/or vintage of bb/spindle can give you very good control over your crankarm's placement, but only if you take all of the above considerations into account.
But, at the shop level, I don't see this happening except in the case of the very consciencious few, and thus I have to argue for the advice to eyeball and measure (per Bill's advice) the parts you might have on hand and always do a test-fitting where any doubts may exist as to taper, offset or inter-brand spindle compatibility.
Last edited by dddd; 10-19-13 at 06:22 PM.
10-19-13, 03:27 PM
#5
Banned.
No, keep the same spindle length. Adjust for asymmetry by installing a small shim under the drive side cup. I typically use a 2mm spacer. Per the specs above, I might just go with a 1mm spacer (typical Japanese bbs had 4 to 5mm offset).
Measure your current spindle to determine offset.
As far as spindle taper compatibility, I will leave that to others.
Measure your current spindle to determine offset.
As far as spindle taper compatibility, I will leave that to others.
There is intelligence on this planet!
10-19-13, 03:33 PM
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10-19-13, 03:44 PM
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10-19-13, 06:09 PM
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Looks like your (Sutherland's Vol. 4 spindle data chart) link got disabled by the owner's "intellectual" property rights web-policing body?
I can't see it anymore, but from what was showing, I'm tempted to believe someone was just possibly on drugs back in the day when they did their measurements.
That business of different left and right-side tapers, I've never seen a shred of evidence of that in over 20 years of measuring a large variety of square-taper spindles. It looks like someone who wasn't quite all there decided to measure the taper width at some reference point other than referenced by the ends of the spindle, i.e. further up the taper, perhaps where the blending radius starts or stops.
How much sense does that make?
It's crazy that this chart made it into the 21st century.
I can't see it anymore, but from what was showing, I'm tempted to believe someone was just possibly on drugs back in the day when they did their measurements.
That business of different left and right-side tapers, I've never seen a shred of evidence of that in over 20 years of measuring a large variety of square-taper spindles. It looks like someone who wasn't quite all there decided to measure the taper width at some reference point other than referenced by the ends of the spindle, i.e. further up the taper, perhaps where the blending radius starts or stops.
How much sense does that make?
It's crazy that this chart made it into the 21st century.
Last edited by dddd; 10-19-13 at 06:24 PM.
10-21-13, 09:24 AM
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To all who took the time to reply :
First of all a big "Thank You". I only joined this forum recently (after being a browser for a few weeks) after I bought a Vitus Seven (A late model Vitus 979, I think) and wanted to post to an existing thread about that bike model (to add some info as there does not seem to be much about). I've since posted a bit in response to others queries (mainly about Alan bikes of which I have had one for many years). This was my first real query post, where I was looking for help - and I've found it in spades.
What I've learned from your replies (at least its what I'm taking from them), is :
1. Not to be afraid of Campy (that is my interpretation).
2. Worry about the BB length after I get the crankset/chainset - try and get a BB with whatever crankset I buy.
3. Use whatever BBs I have - already I have an old threadless cartridge BB, too worn to use, but it is a 116 JIS so I can use it to model the crankset "fit" and make calculations before I order a good one. (Also, if a BB comes with the crankset that I buy, I can measure it and also use it as the the basis for calculations - it won't be of use as I'll need to buy a threadless one).
4. In a pinch, I could remove the cranks from my old Alan and check the line/fit of the "new" crankset against the BB on that (although I hate messing with something thats old and working - "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is usually my motto)
Thanks again for all the info - some of that stuff above I have not been able to find through other channels and I will keep it for reference.
Incidentally, my retro project is a Peugeot CFX-10 frame (frame only model of Peugeots PX-10) built in 1980 - all the advice is against going with a french bike as your first project, but I'm not good at taking (some) advice. I'm enjoying the mental challenge presented by french standards (derailleur hanger, stem/headset, the BB shell (is it french threaded or swiss threaded?), turns out it is french threaded (hurrah) but someone before me machined a bevelled edge to take an old threadless which messed of the first few threads on either side. I'm shortly moving onto the physical challenges of building (cannot start until after Christmas as the frame is a Christmas present from my wife - she thinks a project will slow me down with buying more bikes)
Alan
First of all a big "Thank You". I only joined this forum recently (after being a browser for a few weeks) after I bought a Vitus Seven (A late model Vitus 979, I think) and wanted to post to an existing thread about that bike model (to add some info as there does not seem to be much about). I've since posted a bit in response to others queries (mainly about Alan bikes of which I have had one for many years). This was my first real query post, where I was looking for help - and I've found it in spades.
What I've learned from your replies (at least its what I'm taking from them), is :
1. Not to be afraid of Campy (that is my interpretation).
2. Worry about the BB length after I get the crankset/chainset - try and get a BB with whatever crankset I buy.
3. Use whatever BBs I have - already I have an old threadless cartridge BB, too worn to use, but it is a 116 JIS so I can use it to model the crankset "fit" and make calculations before I order a good one. (Also, if a BB comes with the crankset that I buy, I can measure it and also use it as the the basis for calculations - it won't be of use as I'll need to buy a threadless one).
4. In a pinch, I could remove the cranks from my old Alan and check the line/fit of the "new" crankset against the BB on that (although I hate messing with something thats old and working - "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is usually my motto)
Thanks again for all the info - some of that stuff above I have not been able to find through other channels and I will keep it for reference.
Incidentally, my retro project is a Peugeot CFX-10 frame (frame only model of Peugeots PX-10) built in 1980 - all the advice is against going with a french bike as your first project, but I'm not good at taking (some) advice. I'm enjoying the mental challenge presented by french standards (derailleur hanger, stem/headset, the BB shell (is it french threaded or swiss threaded?), turns out it is french threaded (hurrah) but someone before me machined a bevelled edge to take an old threadless which messed of the first few threads on either side. I'm shortly moving onto the physical challenges of building (cannot start until after Christmas as the frame is a Christmas present from my wife - she thinks a project will slow me down with buying more bikes)
Alan
10-21-13, 09:54 AM
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I think your take away seems accurate. Is there enough material left in the BB to have it rethreaded (if you could find a shop with French BB taps)? I would think that sticking with a threaded BB if you can would be preferable to threadless, but I have never used a threadless BB, so my advice may be unwarranted 
10-21-13, 10:29 AM
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Lot's of mention of jis/iso in recent threads on BB
Shelodon says Iso on Jis will put the crank at 4.5 mm further out than if it was iso/iso or Jis/jis, so you may need to think about this also in addtion to spacers https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html
see https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...hi-saga-redux)
Shelodon says Iso on Jis will put the crank at 4.5 mm further out than if it was iso/iso or Jis/jis, so you may need to think about this also in addtion to spacers https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html
see https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...hi-saga-redux)
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(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
10-21-13, 11:07 AM
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10-21-13, 11:10 AM
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If the OP's frame had English or French thread, it could be reamed and re-tapped to Italian thread.
10-21-13, 11:50 AM
#14
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Thanks again for all the info - some of that stuff above I have not been able to find through other channels and I will keep it for reference.
Incidentally, my retro project is a Peugeot CFX-10 frame (frame only model of Peugeots PX-10) built in 1980 - all the advice is against going with a french bike as your first project, but I'm not good at taking (some) advice. I'm enjoying the mental challenge presented by french standards (derailleur hanger, stem/headset, the BB shell (is it french threaded or swiss threaded?), turns out it is french threaded (hurrah) but someone before me machined a bevelled edge to take an old threadless which messed of the first few threads on either side. I'm shortly moving onto the physical challenges of building (cannot start until after Christmas as the frame is a Christmas present from my wife - she thinks a project will slow me down with buying more bikes)
Alan
Incidentally, my retro project is a Peugeot CFX-10 frame (frame only model of Peugeots PX-10) built in 1980 - all the advice is against going with a french bike as your first project, but I'm not good at taking (some) advice. I'm enjoying the mental challenge presented by french standards (derailleur hanger, stem/headset, the BB shell (is it french threaded or swiss threaded?), turns out it is french threaded (hurrah) but someone before me machined a bevelled edge to take an old threadless which messed of the first few threads on either side. I'm shortly moving onto the physical challenges of building (cannot start until after Christmas as the frame is a Christmas present from my wife - she thinks a project will slow me down with buying more bikes)
Alan
Not sure if the chamfering was the result of frustration at finding a suitable French BB, or the threading actually got damaged prior.
10-21-13, 11:55 AM
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If the OP's frame had Italian thread, the only options would be a threadless cartridge or filling the damaged threads with brass and re-tapping Italian thread. The latter option would require a repaint.
If the OP's frame had English or French thread, it could be reamed and re-tapped to Italian thread.
If the OP's frame had English or French thread, it could be reamed and re-tapped to Italian thread.
I've had good luck with finessing steel cups into steel and alloy bb shells whose threads were mangled.
It requires patience and a good eye, to observe the cup is going in straight along the bb shell's axis, plus also requires a solid, flat "anvil" type of surface to rest the other end of the bb shell on while using a 3-4lb hammer to "rock" and thus align the cup as it is rotated incrementally into threaded engagement with the shell.
I've done this out of desperation (no taps available), successfully, many times.
I've restored heavily cross-threaded bb threads using this method, which has the benefit of removing no metal from the threads.
Actually, I can't remember this method ever not working, but do make sure that the steel cup used is the correct threading for the frame!
Last edited by dddd; 10-21-13 at 11:59 AM.
10-21-13, 12:36 PM
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Those last few posts in relation to my BB options - I've been through all those thoughts too. The B shell is French Threaded. All things being equal, I'd prefer to have a threaded BB and that is the option I worked through first. But no matter what way I looked at it, every option for threaded involved machining or otherwise interfering with the threads that do exist - each with their own risk and maybe some irreversible damage. So, I have decided to go with the threadless option (see https://store.velo-orange.com/index.p...-brackets.html) which if it works, great (and there encouraging reports about the VO BB) - and if it doesn't work, will have caused no further damage to the frame. If it doesn't work, then I'll chase down one of the threaded options - possibly just scraping (not sure what with) the leading edge of the current leading thread on both sides of the BB shell (thats the bit that is damaged). A very steady hand & a fine tool should do it, then I'll have a BB shell which is missing 2 or 3 threads from each side - hopefully I can get a French Threaded BB to fit that (Velo Orange do some as to Tange) - that is plan B.
11-02-14, 03:03 PM
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After all the above considerations, I went with a Velo Orange Threadless BB and Shimano Components (mostly). Photo of finished product attached.
Also, details of the BB fitting are include in my project blog here - 1: Home: Restoring an old bike
Also, details of the BB fitting are include in my project blog here - 1: Home: Restoring an old bike
11-02-14, 07:02 PM
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Beautiful bike. Love the livery.
