psteckler

I have a Dahon Helios P8 with Kinetix Comp 20" wheels. I want to replace the wheelset, because too many spokes have been breaking.

I last bought a wheelset for this bike around 2017 from ThorUSA, who is now out of business.

Is there a USA source for these wheels? Google finds me only some UK sources.

Otherwise, is there a compatible wheelset available (406 size, 8-speed hub)?

Duragrouch

Another poster on here found 406 wheels on Aliexpress, he paid $100, I looked and found what looked like the same set for $90 + $40 shipping. Looked nice quality, definitely above Dahon's cheaper wheels and perhaps equal to Kinetix, they were aero deep section rims. I have not used Aliexpress.

Where are your current spokes breaking? At the hub on the drive side? A spoke protector may help there, I added one to mine; I dropped a chain once between the low cog and spokes, chewed up a couple spokes at the hub end, and sure enough, those broke over time right there. Also, first thing I do with any new bike is true the wheels to my spec; If the rim is very close in true, I'll just check that spokes are equal in tension. If rim is at all out of true radially (which affects all spokes), I'll start from scratch; unwind the tension on all spokes, and bring them back up while truing the wheel very closely, and striving for equal tension on all spokes on the front, and on each respecting side on the rear. That helps tremendously for durability, and your wheel will stay in true for years of riding, without any adjustments, it's just amazing how much of a difference a really good truing job makes. One of the best, and most satisfying things you can do, is learn to true you own wheels; You'll take more time and do a better job, and it's wonderfully satisfying in a zen sort of way. Practice on old wheels first. No need for a truing stand, a clothespin on the frame works. But you need to remove the tires for proper truing.

Jipe

Why not just (let) rebuild the wheels with new high quality spokes?

It will be a better, more reliable solution than a cheap wheelset found on Aliexpress built with unknown quality components.

Duragrouch

Last I looked, good spokes cost a ton, spokes cost more than complete wheels. Most stainless spokes are not bad, but a great truing job for equal tensions makes a huge difference. What's my name?

Lemme find that post for the guy who bought wheels, he can tell you (psteckler) about the ones he bought...

This thread, post #36:
https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-b...t-steak-2.html

More details about the purchase and the wheels in post #44.

psteckler

I called Dahon, and they have the original wheelset available for order through an LBS.

My current wheelset was installed around 2017, so that's a pretty good run.

Surprisingly, the spokes have been breaking on the front wheel, not the rear. Or maybe not so surprising, the roads around me in Oakland have lots of bad pavement and potholes.

bargainguy

If your front wheel is breaking spokes, it's being overstressed in a critical fashion. One it can't recover from in real time.

I'm assuming you are not overstressing the bike with regard to weight capacity or load, and that the wheelset wasn't improperly tensioned from the beginning or some such.

I'm wondering if your Kinetix wheelset is just a bad match for your road conditions. Low spoke count wheels don't have much "give" when roads are rutted, making spoke breakage more of a real possibility.

If this line of reasoning is correct, you might want to consider a higher spoke count wheel, one that's a little beefier for your Oakland roads.

Jipe

What usually causes spokes to break is insufficient tension.

In such a case, all spokes must be replaced, not only the broken ones.

Its a good practice to check spokes tension on any newly mounted wheel (new wheel or remounted wheel with new spokes) after having used it for some times.

Duragrouch

Lemme take a wild-@ss-guess: The front wheel is radially spoked, spokes don't cross. I hate radial spoking. First, it puts more stress on the hub flange. Second, the spokes are shorter so have less elasticity, so they break easier under shock loads. Third, as you roll the bike, the spokes on the bottom, in tension but under compression loads, have their tension reduced, and with radial spokes, there is not mitigation of this, BUT, with crossing spokes, the spoke crossed against the bottom spoke, that spoke not on the bottom and not losing tension, will exert bending force against the bottom spoke, helping to maintain tension. With a radial spoke, it's tension changing more, equates to greater fatigue stress and lower life. There is a darned good reason for crossed spoke wheels. Radial spoking is a fad, starting on race bikes to supposedly reduce wheel drag. Crossed spokes are mandatory on rear wheels, and all wheels with disc brakes. But I strongly advocate cross fronts on all street bikes.

I also hate low spoke counts. Dahon went to 20 spoke fronts, but I prefer their earlier wheels that were 28 rear and front. Bike Friday, their bikes touring a lot, use 32 or 36 spokes. But all non-disc Dahon 20"ers have a 74mm OLD fork, not 100mm standard like others, so many more durable wheelsets will not fit the Dahon fork. Like Bike Friday wheels.

Jipe

Yes, radial spokes are fragile.

The main problem is that the wheel has less torsional resistance when braking.

If a bike shot rebuild the front wheel, it can change to a cross spokes. The original hub and rim can be used, only new spokes with an adapted length are needed (better to also replace the nipples).

20 spokes for a front wheel is not an issue if the total weight is not huge and if high quality butted spokes are used.

Duragrouch

Torsional resistance of radial spoking: Yes, pretty much zero between rim and hub, will wind up and overstress the spokes, but that is with disc or hub brakes. With rim brakes, there is no torsion issue; Ground thrust pushes bottom of rim aft, rim brake pulls top of rim aft, and axle is pushed forward by fork, so loads the aft spokes in tension, in addition to the top spokes in tension from bike and rider weight.

One nice benefit of disc brakes is that it forces the use of crossed spokes, often 3X and not just 2X. I think the first wheel I ever built was 4X on 36 holes, "tangential", I didn't know what I was doing but the LBS said it would be durable and ride nice. I learned truing by trial and error. Did not know the trick about starting the lacing, so spokes crossed over the valve stem, but still plenty of room for the pump head.

20 spokes is adequate for an unladen 20" bike, but I often ride mine laden with front and back panniers full of groceries. Dahon didn't cut 8 spokes to save weight, they did it to save money.

Butted spokes are hard to find in 20" lengths at the LBS. They always take long spokes, cut to length, then roll-form threads onto the ends. Butted spokes need to be the right length from the get-go.

Jipe

There are specialized bike shop who have short butted spokes for small diameter wheels like bike shop selling recumbent bikes and trike that have often small diameter wheels. They can also provide flat aero spokes like the Sapim CX Ray which are also strong and often used to lace wheels with a small amount of spokes.

The Kinetics Comp are lightweight wheels for lightweight sport folding bikes, not made for heavy utility bikes.

Samb76

I have a pair of these wheels (unused). If you were in the UK you could have them. I have seen numerous failures of these rims as the spokes are under phenomenal tension and that tension is required to keep them true. I have seen spokes snap and the rims themselves fail as the spoke is ripped out. I would recommend evenly spaced radial spokes, even when the spoke count is low.
I have rims from Aliexpress and the quality, finish and bearings are all better. I found the finish on the Kinetix rims quite poor.
You can find wheelsets with Novatec hubs on Aliexpress - these seem to be well made without being overly expensive, but allow fitting of SRAM XO, XD cassette bodies which allow SRAM design cassettes with 9 and 10 tooth sprockets which are great for tall gears/smaller chainwheels and reduction of chain length and weight, and wider or closer gear ranges. I run a 10-36t 11 speed gearset which gives good flexibility.

Jipe

The very high tension on the spokes and then on the rim is a consequence of the radial lacing!

Duragrouch

Exactly! I had not thought about this additional drawback of radial lacing, but absolutely true. With a laced spoke to help maintain tension, lower tension can be used and the wheel not get out of true. My Dahon speed had a factory true that was not to my standards (out radially), so I wound everything down and did a really great truing job, these were the cheap single-wall dahon rims, and I'm guessing I've put 15,000-20,000 miles on those rims, and never had to retrue, except when breaking a couple spokes in rear from them being chewed by chain (I then added a spoke protector disc). It's just amazing how well a cross-spoke wheel stays in true, with a really good true job with even tensions.