plantrob

Interesting change. Looks like there's a slight possibility after all that I may at some point upgrade to Cat 3. I'm a strong enough rider to grab a few points here and there, but I don't see myself winning many races. So with a rather low volume of races (got just five non-training races in in 2012), I wasn't about to accumulate enough upgrade points in 12 months ever. With the new rules - well, it may take a few years

grolby

It wasn't obvious to me from the email whether they meant that all points accumulated ever (from 2012 on) counted toward an upgrade or whether points now need to be accrued in a calendar year. I think you're right and it's the former, which would make more sense given the increased points requirement for Cat 2 upgrades.

I wonder what the reasoning here is, but I THINK it might be an attempt to reduce sandbagging. Or at least to encourage upgrading by more riders who might be strong but for whatever reason struggle to accumulate the points they need to upgrade. I think the rule changes for cyclocross are going to have a more dramatic effect, though - CX4 is brought much more in line with Cat 5, only more so: racers MUST upgrade after 10 races.

caloso

In my case, I would keep stalling out in the teens as my points would expire, but I was able to upgrade just as easily on top 10s. In NorCal, it was easy enough to race a couple of times a weekend during the spring and summer (particularly as a 35+) and it didn't take that long to accumulate 10 top 10s. But I think this may help riders in districts where races are fewer and more far-flung and even though they are placing well, just don't have as many opportunities before the annual clock runs out.

Note that the top 10 option is still available.

kindablue

This might mean those friggern climbers will eventually upgrade.

Treefox

Yeah, I'd have become a 3 a while earlier with this.

I know some upper cat guys who are not happy; feeling like it devalues the 1s and 2s.

I figure if it evens out the numbers in races it's a good thing - it was always frustrating as a 4 to miss races that filled up in 10 minutes from reg opening while the 1-2 races had just 30 guys line up.

grolby

The upper cat people who don't like it can GTFO it. They'll still be just as fast, so who cares if there are a few more racers? Besides, there's now no 12 month window, but upgrading from 3 to 2 is actually harder on sheer points. What are they worried about, some 3 grinding his way to Cat 2 on 3 points a year for a decade? They need to think this through before getting all bent out of shape.

Treefox

Well even with the higher point requirements, it'll make a lot more people capable of upgrades even if we don't see it for two or three years. So yeah, it'll be easier to upgrade. There'll be a lot of people putting in their upgrade requests in the coming years who've been less successful as racers than the people who presently occupy those categories.

Again, if this evens out numbers in racing fields, I think it's a good thing (could mean more 4/5 races and fewer 1/2/3 races, FWIW) - but I can see where people in the upper cats are coming from.

grwoolf

To go from 4 to 3, I believe 20 pack finishes is all you need regardless of points (and I don't think there is any time limit). It seems like this change will have a much bigger impact on the higher Categories.

Treefox

Yup, though they have to be with fields of 60[?] or more, which can be hard to come by in some parts of the country. I never got dropped in a straight 4 race, but I didn't have enough big enough fields to upgrade by that route. I went with the top-ten finishes method, though with this new rule I would have upgraded long before on points.

grolby

I agree it's a good thing, but I differ in that I simply don't get the objections; if the new upgrades are strong enough to race in Cat 2, fine. If it gives the fast guys more pack fodder and bigger fields, fine. There's just no downside, UNLESS you have a big head about the "prestige" (LOL) of being a Cat 2 or Cat 1 racer. Which is a crap attitude to have, so screw those guys. It's still not easy to get there - it takes dedication, time and ability. If it requires less raw talent, so be it. As I said, that much more pack fodder for the fast racers.

Blossom

In Arizona it seems like the Cat 4 races are aways full and the 3s often are while the 1,2 races have 10-20 riders. Moving some of those people up should even the fields out a bit. It might also make it so there is more than one team at the 1/2 level in the state.

I don't think it will affect somebodies chance to win a race, though. The fast guys will still blow through the lower categories until they get to a category where they stop winning... it just that there will be a few more people in that category now.

jsutkeepspining

im indifferent to the rule tbh. Yes it will make getting my 1 upgrade a ton easier, but on the other hand it doesn't matter, i just want to upgrade by the end of the season at the latest, and ill race enough to make sure it happens.

tetonrider

you don't have to race often, just make your races count. i'm sure you know that the 2->1 upgrade can only be done on points, not pack finishes or top-10s in smaller fields (as for 4->3).

tetonrider

it seems that many racers use "moving up" as a carrot -- never mind the fact that many people will upgrade themselves out of being competitive and then exit the sport.i guess this allows people to continue moving upward (or feel like they are if they're accumulating a point here or there) and perhaps keeps them engaged, more races, more race fees, etc.

i know some regions are not like this, but when i talk with friends around the country there are numerous areas where p12 fields are very small. moving some cat 3s up can help increase field size. in regions where p12 is big, perhaps that can lead to justification for cat-2-only fields. those seem to be very popular (as in racers will travel a long distance for stage races which offer them).

regardless, i like your comment about the "prestige". it's all about egos, of course -- we all have one. however, to think that a number on a card really means something in life is silly -- it's all just amateur sport, no matter how serious it may seem in the particular moment. (note: i train, prepare my gear meticulously, etc., but i can step back and realize that in 10 years from now no one will care who won the 2012 tour of the gila in the cat 2s (or cat4) 10 years...other than perhaps the winner.

jsutkeepspining

i just meant that if i was at say 30-34 points in august i would keep racing till i got the last point.

mattm

Pack fodder is of little use if they all get dropped quickly anyway. I guess field sizes will increase so the available points may increase in some areas, but still.

If people couldn't make it to the 1/2's previously, what good will it do them to make it now?

Still, I don't really care about the changes. I'm just glad I made it to the 2's before they went in to effect.

jsutkeepspining

^thats an important note. the jump from 4 to 3 is very little (i would say it easier in the 3's, but some might disagree), but the jump from raicng with a bunch of 3's to the 1/2 field is huge. if you're just a pack fill 3 with the occasional point or two here and there, upgrading isnt the best choice, because now your in a race where that super fast 3 you kept getting beat by is no the slow racer.


edit: please matt dont take offense to using you as an example. But look at matt, he destroyed every 3 race he was. i think he had like 40 poitns when he finally upgraded, and he isnt just winning races in the 1/2 fields. yes he's doing well, but how do you think the guy who was getting his ass whooped by him would do.

tetonrider

riders who are marginally qualified do not have to upgrade...it's just a bit easier if they want to. (i agree that some riders who want to upgrade are a bit misguided.)

note: they changed language from 'mandatory' upgrade to 'automatic' upgrade. i understand they are taking steps toward actually making this a programmatic thing. of course, sometimes this will not work (RDs who do not submit results, as one example), but right now the 'mandatory' upgrade is only enforced if other riders initiate a complaint.

jsutkeepspining

i know they arn't required, i was just saying this rule doesnt help the guys who can barely upgrade besides the fact that they can now upgrade out of a cat where they were not strong, and go into a cat that they will be the weakest rider there.

tetonrider

right...but it helps them if their desire is to upgrade at all costs. not everyone knows what is most beneficial for them in the long-term.

i suppose that there are scenarios where some people have a specific talent (eg a sprinter) and cannot secure very many points without a team's help...so perhaps if someone was really specialized and had no team in cat 3 but could upgrade to 2 where they have a full team, that might make sense. grasping at straws here.

i know more people who upgraded too early than took too long to do so.

mattm

Hey I won the final sprint of the 1/2's season!! Alas it was a training race.. and a points race, so I didn't actually win the race.

But yes I agree, the jump is big!! And I'm glad it is. Challenge is fun.

jsutkeepspining

fool who's the alien here. Let me speak my alien ideas!

Creatre

I bummed that it's more points for 3-->2 now, but hopefully it'll help prepare me just that little bit more to make the jump. I'm pretty sure I can get the points next year based on my training and fitness if I can just get some good race tactics flowing, but I'm not sure I'm ready to race with the 1,2s yet. Hopefully by the time I get all those points I'll know if I belong or not!

adam_mac84

it's funny that they did this. I requested an upgrade from 5-->4 on road after 5 races 4 top 5's and 1 pack finish. I race cat 3 cx, and had 15+ races last year, 20 this year... they don't count those. I got denied on my upgrade... now they are making it easier for me to get out of the 5's. I was told that they 'aren't letting any 5's up early'. Now it seems they are trying to make it easier to get out of 5 for guys like me that use road for training and could use the miles.

shovelhd

Cat5's should always do their 10. Period. End of story. Good on whoever held the line on your "upgrade".

I've stated my position on this in another thread. I have no problem with the rule changes. What I said elsewhere is that it will affect the pros the most, in the P/1 NRC/NCC races, as there will be more Cat1's trying to take their food off the table. This may cause a change in team tactics. Then again, nothing may change at all.