ItsJustMe

You may as well walk then.

Actually where I live, you couldn't get anywhere. There are no sidewalks or paths anywhere around me. More than 300 feet from my driveway, 50 MPH 2 lane, no shoulders. I have no problems. Your fear is something you need to overcome.

Chris516

With time, you will change.

hallux

As a new member (joined after the last post here), sorry for digging this out of the week-old bin.

I've had two instances of run-ins with cyclists (with me as a driver). I'm now the cyclist and still don't see where they were in the right. In both cases it was multiple riders, in both cases the road was approaching a curve that was difficult to see around. In both cases the cyclists were riding side by side with one in the travel lane. As I approached I gave a quick tap on the horn to alert to my approach, expecting they would fall into a line (they didn't), and several more quick taps when they didn't. In one case, the cyclist in the road actually moved FURTHER left, in both instances there was a sufficiently wide shoulder for a cyclist to be on safely (and I alerted a local LEO to their unsafe actions a short way down the road in one of them). In both cases, the approaching curve was bad enough that moving into the other lane as a motorist is unsafe as you can't see cars coming the other way. Yes, motorists should share the road with cyclists, but sharing involves multiple parties.

One of these resulted in a hand signal involving one finger from one of the cyclists, the other resulted in a verbal altercation resulting from a hand signal by the cyclist inviting me to stop (I shouldn't have but there was nobody approaching from behind). I did what I could to alert them to approaching motorized traffic and in both cases they exhibited the same "I own the road" attitude that cyclists complain about from motorists.

wphamilton

He moved left to prevent you from passing on the blind curve, as you had indicated was your intention with the repeated horn honking. As you describe it I'd rather be on the nice wide shoulder, but it may not have been enough room for safety in their opinion for a car, a bicycle and another car potentially approaching from the other direction, in which case they did exactly the right thing.

hallux

He did it so he could continue to ride side by side with his pal. There was PLENTY of room, as evidenced by one of the riders being on the shoulder. The shoulder is 4 feet wide and clear of potholes there. See the image attached, I started overtaking near the end of the guardrail at the top of the picture, traveling from the top to the bottom in the picture.

Don in Austin

Why could you not just fall behind and pass when it was safe?

Don in Austin

Jimi77

I don't know why I'd want overcome my fear: it's based on years and years of real life observation and experience. Yesterday, I was following a guy drifting all over the place - probably drunk. Not too long ago in a Home Depot lot I nearly got plowed into by a couple plumbers in a big 2 ton work truck - the driver was distracted by passenger loading a pipe (presumably marijuana). Of course I could go on and on, but I'll finish with the story of the uninsured and unlicensed driver who was driving in the left lane, signaled a left turn and then decided to turn right slamming into my car. Ironically the police allowed him to drive away from the scene. Had I been on a bike that day I'd probably be 6 feet under. Sorry, I've been in too many accidents and seen too many extremely stupid maneuvers to take on these people on armed only with a bike.

hallux

Because the last thing I need is for someone to come around that curve at 50-55 (it happens) not realizing I'm still behind the cyclists going <20. It wouldn't end well for either motorist. Again, sharing the road GOES BOTH WAYS. As cyclists it's our responsibility to ride as far right as possible. As can be seen in the image I posted, it's MORE than possible for the cyclists to have been on the shoulder. Cyclists demand respect from motorists but they lose some when they ride down the middle of the road (the one in the road was riding the yellow line once they were aware of my presence) when there's a 4 foot wide shoulder that's clear of debris and potholes. Just as motorists don't own the road, neither do cyclists, and I can assure you, and bike is more nimble and can stop a lot faster than a 3500-4000 lb vehicle.

When I was a young'un I was always taught to ride the shoulder where possible, ride single file and alert others to my presence when overtaking ("on your left"). Has this changed? Certainly seems so, last time I was walking on a local MUP I nearly jumped out of my shoes several times as cyclists sped past. Yes, I was wearing headphones but I could hear highway noise from 1/4 mile away, I could almost certainly have heard someone 10 feet behind say "on your left".

CB HI

No. He did just as wphamilton states, he was protecting himself from a clueless driver.

I would not have let you squeeze by me on this curve either.

https://goo.gl/maps/GcG63

CB HI

Pretty much everything you have said in this post is wrong. Let's start with you showing us the law that uses the word 'possible' in it.

hallux

That wasn't exactly the curve, but near there.

From https://www.safeny.ny.gov/bike-vt.htm

Anything else to question the New York bicycle laws? OK, the law doesn't say possible, it says they SHOULD ride single-file when being overtaken by a vehicle.

CB HI

My street view matches your photo location and is in the direction of travel you indicated. Feel free to show us a street view which you think more accurately shows the curve.

Since it was unsafe for you to squeeze by even a solo cyclist, riding two abreast makes no difference. Your repeated honking was harassment. Maybe you should look up the penalty for that.

Don in Austin

Several points here:

Are you saying if you had hung back until a better place to pass you would have been rear-ended? Or are you talking about traffic coming the other direction? What would you have done if you got behind a farm tractor pulling a load of hay? Honked repeatedly?

Your map does not show the blind curve, so a little hard to get a good scenario from that.

Re' "on your left" on a MUP -- all too often that causes people to GO to the left. This has been discussed to death on this forum.

A bike "can stop faster than a 3500-400 lb vehicle?" Pure and utter nonsense! A car does not go end-over-end when the front brakes are applied too heavily. Most modern cars have anti-lock brake systems allowing all wheels to maintain maximum braking force just on the verge of locked-wheel skid mode which is something a bicycle can not even come close to doing.

If you want cyclists to cooperate with you do NOT honk at them. Your horn is much louder and aggressive to a cyclist than to a motorist with windows rolled up, AC blowing and radio turned on. I go out of my way to be courteous to drivers but I WILL take the lane and make a "stay back" gesture with my left hand when it is not clear to pass. As soon as it is, clear I put the left hand on the bars, move right and even make "come on" hand signals. Start honking at me and, imperfect human that I am, I will be bigtime time pissed off and you will bring out my worst behavior.

Don in Austin

hallux

How was it unsafe to squeeze by a solo cyclist if they were riding safely? There were TWO, riding side by side, one that moved FURTHER left when they realized someone was behind them. Remember, the second rider didn't occupy the entire lane until they were alerted to my presence. I honked maybe 3 times and they were quick taps of the horn, not exactly harassment. Also, that statute does indicate a exception if a left turn is planned, there was no hand signal to indicate such a turn.

https://www.google.com/maps/preview#...1bLA!2e0&fid=5

Again, if they were doing as the statute says they should, it would have been safe to go by but they weren't, they were riding side by side and obstructing traffic (something else the statute says they shouldn't do). You can't say they didn't know I was there, I feel I did more than others would have by alerting them to my approach, others probably would have (somewhat unsafely) crossed the double yellow to go past without any alert.

Yes, there's a crack there that may be "unsafe" to cross but if you look one image back the crack isn't there and it gets much smaller and safer to cross in the next image forward.

GamblerGORD53

I agree with hallux 100%. Anyone who thinks a 4 foot shoulder is not safe needs a nice padded room on the funnyfarm.
Expecting cars to wait behind so cyclists can ride side by side there is laughable. Upity JERKS.
There are 3 foot shoulders on a highway here where I ride just fine. Pickup trucks do make passes towards me without much ado. Just the same, vehicles from behind will often swing way wide when possible.

Around here in Alberta there is ZERO chance a single cyclist will not be FRAP on the shoulders of highways.

+1 HONKING the horn.

hallux

Possibly. I can kind of see your point, but not a possibility on that road
Look in my post above. It's not EXACTLY a "blind curve" but the speeds at which people travel there will cause someone to appear from the other direction very fast

Hasn't been my experience, in fact I've had many people acknowledge that I said it and thank me for doing so. As I said, it was much more of a scare to me to NOT have it said and have a cyclist blow by at 20 MPH causing me to nearly jump out of my shoes.

Not talking specifically about braking, but an experience rider shouldn't have this problem.

So you'd rather that, while riding 2 abreast, someone go past with no warning than to be aware that a vehicle is coming so you can then comply with the law and move to single file? Keep in mind, the amount that I used the horn was nowhere NEAR what I'd to with a motorist, it was a CHIRP, akin to a door lock chirp. Also keep in mind, riding 2 abreast while being overtaken by a vehicle is ILLEGAL according to that NY law I posted, this is exactly what these two were doing, riding two abreast while being overtaken by a vehicle. Here, let me put that in here again:
"Persons riding bicycles or skating or gliding on in-line skates upon a roadway shall ride, skate, or glide single file when being overtaken by a vehicle."

No stipulations about it being unsafe. Yes, I go faster than the limit while driving but if I come upon a walker runner or cyclist on my side of the road I either slow down (which I had done in this case) or cross the double yellow to give space, if safe to do so (which I didn't feel was the case here) or both. I utilize the roads for things other than driving (walking and cycling soon) and expect the same respect. I wouldn't even CONSIDER riding 2 abreast on a busy road (which this is)

CB HI

So you want cyclist to swerve around unsafe cracks just to suit you. A smart solo cyclist would be in the same position that the left cyclist was. So your situation would not have changed.

Look at where this car is driving as he would have approached your cyclist. That is why the guy was taking the lane to either slow or move well left to prevent this guy from passing to close with no way out for a curb hugging cyclist.
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=42.89...21922&t=m&z=11

fietsbob

Turf battles + the illusion that Gas Taxes are all that is used to build and Maintain Streets.

genec

Believe me as a cyclist, you have plenty of warning that a vehicle is coming... even "silent" electric cars make road noise with their tires. Internal combustion drive motor vehicles are quite loud.... from the road noise of the tires, to the wind noise of the vehicle to the sound of air being sucked into the carb/intake manifold to the exhaust, ICE vehicles pretty much announce themselves...

Your use of the HORN is about as abrasive and jarring as the font I just used.

You are more likely to startle a cyclist into a dangerous wobble by your use of the horn, so please don't honk... just learn to slow down, check the situation for a few seconds or more, and wait to do a proper wide, safe, pass. Really, there is no reason to not do so... and if you cannot do this, may I suggest you hire a proper well trained driver. Apparently you already have a problem with driving the speed limit...

CB HI

You keep harping on this even though I have explained why a solo cyclist would ride in the same position, yet you freely admit that you exceed the speed 45 mph speed limit on this 2 lane road. What is wrong with your prospective?

wphamilton

I'm unclear about the details given your description so I'll refrain from any comment, but in general there are a few things you should know if you take up road-biking. Italics are your questions or observations.

How was it unsafe to squeeze by a solo cyclist if they were riding safely?

It can be unsafe if the automobile has insufficient room for eventualities, passes too closely (some states require minimum three feet) or is an unsteady driver.

There were TWO, riding side by side, one that moved FURTHER left when they realized someone was behind them. Remember, the second rider didn't occupy the entire lane until they were alerted to my presence.

Commonly to prevent unsafe passing. Again, in your situation we have little indication whether that was it, or the roadie was just being a jerk, but cycling safety teaches this assertive maneuver when necessary.

Also, that statute does indicate a exception if a left turn is planned, there was no hand signal to indicate such a turn.


We need to get int "FRAP" a little. Short for "As far right as practicable". Not "as possible", there's a huge difference. In addition to left turns, conditions along the right side can make it impracticable. Too narrow a lane, upcoming curves, parked cars are other reasons to "take the lane". Basically it means that when the cyclist believes that passing is unsafe, "FRAP" laws allow him to prevent passing by moving out in the lane. Some take it too far and it leads to frustration and anger as in your experience; other times the driver doesn't understand the law and believes the cyclist should always stay as far right as it is possible for him, and that will set off cyclists because it's they who are endangered.

Again, if they were doing as the statute says they should, it would have been safe to go by but they weren't, they were riding side by side and obstructing traffic (something else the statute says they shouldn't do).

This particular statute does not address "obstructing traffic" although others do. Generally speaking, a vehicle moving at a reasonable speed for that vehicle is not obstructing traffic, although it may seem so to the driver. These statutes usually provide that the slower vehicle move off when it is convenient to do so, to allow the faster traffic to pass. Making you slow down or riding two abreast is not obstructing traffic.

Statutes about riding two abreast varies quite a bit according to the jurisdiction. I'd note that in your case, it refers to being overtaken. When you are passing they need to get single file. But not necessarily when you're behind them wanting to pass.

Don in Austin

Some of your points:

You have just stated that you violate the law when, in your judgment, it is appropriate. In fact, if you violate the letter of the law by safely crossing a double yellow line for the safety of a runner or a cyclist I appreciate that you are not bound by the strict letter of the law. As far as breaking the law by speeding, you do that strictly for your own selfish reasons. It may, indeed, by pretty harmless in many cases. But there is a clear double standard if you feel free to violate the letter of the law but feel cyclists should be held to it strictly no matter what.

Without being on the actual road and knowing how people drive on it, I cannot say if I would have taken the lane or not. I can't see any reason you couldn't have just waited and done the pass when there was better sight distance.
It is obvious blowing your horn -- regardless if you thought it was a benign "chirp" -- did not help the situation. Regardless of the rights or wrongs involved, it is a bad idea. I own an automotive repair shop and I can't recall ever hearing automatic door locks coming anywhere close to the decibel level of a car horn.

Regards bicycles and braking distance: Of course a seasoned rider should be able to handle his bike and slow down without going over the bars. I merely pointed out what utter nonsense it is to say that a bicycle can decelerate faster than a car.

On am glad "On your left" has worked when you say it -- it often doesn't. I am with you in that I do not think aggressive cycling is appropriate on most MUPs.

Don in Austin

hallux

So, you're saying that you ALWAYS follow the speed limit and never roll a stop sign? OK, sure. Again, when approaching someone using the road for walking, running, riding, etc. I give space (if possible) and/or slow down for going past.

Look, I'm aware of what's going on around me while driving, I know what vehicles are where and even monitor my mirrors while stopped. Just as I don't expect another driver should dictate what is or isn't safe for me to do while driving (a whole other situation but my intent was 100% legal, the other guy felt I shouldn't do it), why should a cyclist intentionally occupy a lane when there's a perfectly good shoulder to ride on, just because the cyclist doesn't feel it's safe?

Maybe I learned more safety while riding than others but as I said, I was always taught to ride single file and on the shoulder. Look at that street view again, those cracks certainly disappear to a point that the shoulder could be used, or the cyclist could have gotten on the shoulder before the cracks started. It should be the overtaking vehicle operator's discretion to decide if it's safe to pass or not, that decision shouldn't be made by a cyclist occupying the lane because he wants to be an a$$hole. If a cyclist doesn't feel safe riding on a 4 foot wide shoulder, maybe they need to find another road to ride on.

As for door lock and horn chirp. I can think of a few vehicles (I think my parents have 3 actually) that use the horn for the doors locking with the remote, and those are actually MORE of a honk than I gave. BTW, isn't the intent of a horn to alert to an unsafe situation?

Regarding not sounding the horn, check this out, according to NY law I was in no way in the wrong.

Here's the statute. https://www.safeny.ny.gov/bike-vt.htm#sec1146

Considering the cyclists were 2 abreast when they shouldn't have been, it could be considered that sounding the horn was necessary. Keep arguing, I'll dig through the traffic law some more. I had no intent to hit those cyclists, in fact, they caused me to come to a complete stop in the traffic lane, which is more unsafe than just moving to the side and OBEYING THE LAW.

CB HI

Thanks for proving how JAMs act and the reason for such a thread.

As in most states, this law means it is only legal to sound your horn if you are about to have a collision and the sounding of the horn may help to avoid such collision. Since you were not in an emergency collision situation, your sounding of the horn was illegal, times 3.

FBinNY 

Yes, god knows how many issues in the USA boil down to a simple issue. Some people think that they are paying for stuff and that others are freeloaders. "How dare them to expect free use of this stuff that I pay for".

It could be roads, emergency response, health care, the court system, you name it. In short people don't hate cyclists, they hate freeloaders, especially freeloaders who get in their way on roads they alone paid for.