sjanzeir

It's the rider, not the bike.

indyfabz

There is no rider without the bike.

Sleep on that one.

sjanzeir

And this here, kids, is Bike Forums, encapsulated

Don't flatter yourself. Got bigger fish to fry. Good night and good luck.

elcruxio

If you're going slow then yes, braking can decrease the turn radius. But when you're approaching limits of friction braking mid turn will require you to allocate friction for braking instead of turning. There's only so much friction to go around and thus it's a well known piece of wisdom for any rubber on tarmac speedsport that any grip you use for braking cannot be used for cornering and vice versa.

Typically braking while cornering is a bad idea and should be avoided if at all possible. Goes as well for cars in traffic as well as bombing down downhills with a bicycle.

Metieval

wouldn't front braking drive the front tire harder into the ground, putting more load on it, thus increasing friction with the ground?

Reynolds 

Flip it.

badger1

The only real point to this otherwise utterly pointless thread: to get to page 17 (and beyond).

So, consider this post a public service; just a small contribution to a worthy cause.

terrymorse 

Not true. The fastest technique through turns is by braking into the apex.

Braking at maximum lean

For braking in a curve, take the example of a rider cornering with good traction, leaning at 45 degrees, the equivalent of 1G centrifugal acceleration. Braking with 1/10g increases the traction demand by one half percent. The sum of cornering and braking vectors is the square root of the sum of their squares, SQRT(1^2+0.1^2)=1.005 or an increase of 0.005. In other words, there is room to brake substantially during maximum cornering. Because the lean angle changes as the square of the speed, braking can rapidly reduce the angle and allow even more braking. For this reason skilled racers nearly always apply both brakes into the apex of turns.
--Jobst Brandt, 2003-08-01

badger1

... and there we go! Excellent!

Reynolds 

Don't know about "most" - in my case, I can ride 300kms on my drop bar road bike and on my flat bar with double bar ends MTB too. But to be able to use the drops, my bar is only 4cm lower than my saddle, which means an ugly sky-pointing stem. The original quill stem put the bar 8cm lower than the saddle, it looked good but I couldn't use the drops for more than 10-15mins.

livedarklions

Bars?! I don't need your stinking bars!

elcruxio

You really are an enigma. I particularly remember you and the other guy raving about how unsafe it is to descend on the hoods and how the only responsible and safe way to descend is on the drops.

Yet here you come out saying braking while cornering is a good idea. Yet you fail to read between the lines of the quote you posted where it can be quite easily interpreted that braking into the apex is somewhat of a pushing it to the limits maneuver where a skilled rider has through vast experience and training learned how gauge the levels of grip and uses that knowledge to do something fast but also pretty extreme in every sense.

When you brake while cornering you're using cornering grip for braking. If you exceed the available grip you wipe out instantly. While braking while cornering can be done successfully and many experienced racers do it, it still carries an inherent and quite immense risk which also sometimes realizes in pro racing. To me, a casual rider it is a risk I'm unwilling to take since I'm not making money off the speed I descend at.

You know what skilled racers also do which can be done successfully with few ill effects but also carries an immense risk of failure and severe ill effects? Doping. Also not something I'd recommend for anyone but it does objectively make you faster if that's the goal.

DrIsotope

It doesn't matter what vehicle you're in or on, if it has tires on it you have a variable in play, and that is: maximum amount of available grip. You can use that grip to accelerate or decelerate, or you can use it to turn. Doing one borrows from the other.

Braking inside a corner means you entered that corner with too much speed. The fastest line through the corner is the one without braking.

Metieval

congrats on twisting something so far that it is no longer in the same context.

Metieval

the term is "trail braking", and it is faster to trail brake.

Lightened braking, which fits in with why being in the drops is better. More control over your braking. Unlike the guys on the hoods with the on/off braking.

Metieval

braking is an art form, so is traction

yes it is a drop bar, and yes I use the drops in the snow, on the snow. No it is not fixed, it is freewheel.

I also know that it is possible to save a front wheel washout.

Road Fan

Agree - it's not that "drop bars just aren't for everybody." It's that drop bars slammed downward are too aggressive for most people. Without being judgemental, many of us, me included, cannot sustainably lean enough to ride regularly in the hooks or drops. Many of us need shallower bars, frames with taller stack (top of head tube is higher above the BB), or stems adjusted upward (quill or threadless).

There is still a purpose for products like the Nitto Technomic and Tallux stems. The giraffe effect is not necessarily a bad thing - put cycling comfort over style. And while one may sacrifice short-term speed with the taller stem (if you actually do cycle at your maximum effort) you'll probably fatigue faster due to discomfort. I think better comfort enables longer endurance at a reasonably high average speed.

If you can maintain 17 mph in drops for say, 20 minutes, and with higher bars you can maintain 15 mph for 2 hours, in which case can you go farther in a given ride? And in the longer ride, you have a greater need for varying hand positions just because of duration - so it's better to have a raised drop bar than an upright "3-speed bar," nice as those are.

cyccommute 

To quote someone from earlier "congrats on twisting something so far that it is no longer in the same context." Braking from the hoods is now "on/off braking"? Give me a break...pun intended. "On/off braking" implies that those of us who brake from the hoods either can't stop or can't control our speed or are flipping over the bars. None of that is true.

wphamilton

You're not wrong, but it also occurs to me that too much speed = faster, and as trivial as that sounds I think it's the main reason for trail braking. Going into the turn too hot - the only time I do it as a non-racer - and braking before the apex.

terrymorse 

Incorrect, on both accounts.

Experienced descenders--including pros--brake into curves. So does every race car driver. The technique even has a name: trail-braking. It involves braking hard as you approach the turn, then easing off the brake as you turn into it. I use this technique on every turn that requires hard braking, letting off the brake completely somewhere near the apex.

How Trail Braking Makes You a Faster Driver

terrymorse 

And here you come out saying "braking while cornering is a bad idea and should be avoided if at all possible".

You are incorrect.

Every skilled descender brakes into curves. It is not only fast, it is safe. Simple physics shows this. I literally brake into every fast turn.

Stop fear mongering.

terrymorse 

Excellent article, thanks for posting.

Kapusta

Yeah, you can't get multiple hand positions without a drop bar....

Metieval

Dragging feet never flipped a guy over his bars either. Which is what hood braking does, it just drags the pads.

sirjag

I drove sport bikes for 15yrs, and raced....then started riding a road bike last year...its amazing how many of my skills have transferred over. completely agree about your trail braking...have done this for years and years...and did it instinctively on my road bike...almost without realization until i read this comment..

JAG