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Clubman era replica compatible frames?

Old 09-17-19, 09:29 PM
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Happy Feet
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Clubman era replica compatible frames?

Looking at this beautiful bike has gotten me (once again) inspired to try a long percolating idea to try to make a Clubman (type) replica project over the winter using a more modern yet true to style frame and components :https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...rand-prix.html

Given not having an actual Raleigh frame from that era to start with, what other more easily sourced frames do people think would give a similar geometry / look to a Raleigh Clubman / Lenton? Something common enough to be a taken out for rambles without worrying about wear and tear as the originals were yet with a look (and paint) that might make one think it was from that era. Not trying to "fake" a bike though with misleading decals.

I'm currently into this project, restoring and converting a 69 Gitane Gran Sport Deluxe to single speed status but no matter what I do, it will always be French




My last English project was this 70 Raleigh Grand Pix which I enjoyed but alas, it is too large for me.



Something like this; similar saddle, a SA 3speed IGH perhaps, period fenders, older brake levers etc... But I don't know enough about Clubmans to know what frame would match. Would a 70's era Raleigh road frame, with older parts, pass as a faux style Clubman?

Any ideas?

Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-17-19 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 09-17-19, 09:36 PM
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By Clubman, do you just want to build up a drop bar 3 speed bike? Why can't pretty much any older bike work well for this as long as you are happy with the tire and fender clearance? Personally if I were going to build one of these, I'd be tempted to mod a Raleigh super course with its plain gauge 531 tubing and generous tire clearance.
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Old 09-17-19, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bikemig
By Clubman, do you just want to build up a drop bar 3 speed bike? Why can't pretty much any older bike work well for this as long as you are happy with the tire and fender clearance? Personally if I were going to build one of these, I'd be tempted to mod a Raleigh super course with its plain gauge 531 tubing and generous tire clearance.
Yes sort of. I want to use a more common frame so it is inexpensive (as a project) and can be ridden without too much worry but I also want it to "look" like a clubman visually. I don't know enough about their frame geometry to know if (for example) a super course could be made to look clubman like or not. If you know what I mean. If one put period correct components on it would it look like a faux clubman or a weird super course. Not so much to the collectors eye of course but in a general passing sort of way.

Hopefully that doesn't sound too confused.
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Old 09-17-19, 09:55 PM
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I'm thinking along with Bikemig... you need to list what you define as a "clubman", and specifically, what aspects of the build that you define as 1) have to have, 2) desirable, and finally 3) negotiable. I'm sure some will disagree with you, but that's neither here nor there in acceptability of your final build.
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Old 09-17-19, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by uncle uncle
I'm thinking along with Bikemig... you need to list what you define as a "clubman", and specifically, what aspects of the build that you define as 1) have to have, 2) desirable, and finally 3) negotiable. I'm sure some will disagree with you, but that's neither here nor there in acceptability of your final build.
For this idea (hope it's what you have in mind):

A frame that passes as similar in geometry to the Clubman or Lenton of the 50's.

Similar bars, levers, saddle, peddles, crankset (I have most of this already).

Either a SA three speed or 1x 5 speed with Huret derailer and DT lever (have these). Could try my hand at making a 3 speed derailer freewheel too.

Period looking fenders - undecided.

Wheels debatable: I have 27's, 700's but would also entertain building a 650b rim with plump tan wall's for a twist.

Paint scheme would be similar but not exact, more of a nod to the clubman.

The idea is for a fun build that will allow weekend riding in the style of the day. Not a money pit trying to recreate exactly but not building a frame that would never look as being from that period.

I've thought of this on and off since seeing the modern Raleigh offering. I thought, cool idea to re imagine one but their bikes looked nothing like the originals. What's interesting (to me) is that some of the classic components are still available in modern form Sturmey Archer hubs, Carradice bags, Brooks saddles. With a modern frame and some Velo Orange one could make a fairly reasonable re rendering a little more faithful to the original.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-17-19 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 09-17-19, 10:11 PM
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Steyr Clubman.
even has clubman on the downtube
slack angles, simple
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Old 09-17-19, 10:20 PM
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Interesting...

Not that it might make a difference but I live in Canada and tend to have a harder time finding and shipping bikes. My CL shows nothing. But the bike looks like what I'm after.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-17-19 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 09-18-19, 07:02 AM
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I'm going to build a faux Clubman this winter along the lines you outlined. I like the look of bikes from 1946-1951 and was inspired by Peter Kohler's excellent On the Drops blog. For a frame, I'm using a 1973 English made Supercycle - mostly because I got the bike really cheap and the frame was straight. I can't comment on ride quality or geometry but the weight of the frame and fork is about a pound heavier than my 1978 Raleigh Competition GS frame and fork. The Raleigh is supposedly double butted Reynolds 531 - the Supercycle is gas pipe. Note that my Supercycle has a 21" frame while the Raleigh Completion is a 23" - not exactly the same size, so interpret your own results. I expect to more than make up the difference in weight by using alloy parts from the vendors you mentioned.

I'd say go ahead with your project - its lots of fun making a bespoke bicycle.
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Old 09-18-19, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet

. Would a 70's era Raleigh road frame, with older parts, pass as a faux style Clubman?

Any ideas?
A 70's era Raleigh would be ideal, because to a large extent, the Carlton-built Raleighs c.1969-1976 pretty much duplicated the geometry of 40s and 50s bikes. @chainwhip quoted @ gugie as describing them as "'70s bikes with 1930s geometry," which is a reasonable assessment. Actually, 1970s Raleighs will be a little more upright - both the '73 Competition and the '73-ish Gran Sport frames currently in my shop are about 73-degrees parallel, as opposed to the 71-degree seat, 73-degree head of a lot of the classic British bikes, or 72 degrees parallel.

I used to own an original clubman style bike, a c.1962 Dawes Realmrider built with "Racelite" lugs and probably Tru-wel tubing. The Realmrider was usually a derailleur bike with 4,5, 8 or 10 speeds and a shifter boss and other suitable brazed-on bits, but mine came with what appeared to be a stock Sturmey-Archer FW gearhub -



- and my memory is that it was roughly 72-degrees parallel. It also had a 42-in wheelbase, and on Panaracer Pasela 27 x 1 1/4 it just floated over the road beautifully. Add Dawes to your search, and especially older Galaxy models, which were roughly comparable to the Raleigh Super Course and built with plain gauge 531 main frames.

While I can appreciate the older parts, I wound up deciding I wanted something new that could produce the same ride experience as a vintage bike, but with contemporary parts and dimensions. I ordered this Mercian in 2002 and received it in early January 2003 and have ridden it many many miles since then. If I had it to do today I would have a little more tire clearance and would specify front-opening but very very long rear dropouts rather than the Campagnolo track ends Mercian supplied. It's in its usual fixed-gear mode here, but could easily be adapted to a Sturmey gearhub. That's 72-degrees parallel, 23 1/2-in seat tube to top with a 41-in wheelbase on 700C wheels, btw.

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Old 09-18-19, 08:11 AM
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Excellent Rusty Springs! The Mercian and Dawes are right along the lines of what I'm thinking of. Interesting take on the 70's Raleighs too. Thanks
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Old 09-18-19, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
For this idea (hope it's what you have in mind):

A frame that passes as similar in geometry to the Clubman or Lenton of the 50's.

Similar bars, levers, saddle, peddles, crankset (I have most of this already).

Either a SA three speed or 1x 5 speed with Huret derailer and DT lever (have these). Could try my hand at making a 3 speed derailer freewheel too.

Period looking fenders - undecided.

Wheels debatable: I have 27's, 700's but would also entertain building a 650b rim with plump tan wall's for a twist.

Paint scheme would be similar but not exact, more of a nod to the clubman.

The idea is for a fun build that will allow weekend riding in the style of the day. Not a money pit trying to recreate exactly but not building a frame that would never look as being from that period.

I've thought of this on and off since seeing the modern Raleigh offering. I thought, cool idea to re imagine one but their bikes looked nothing like the originals. What's interesting (to me) is that some of the classic components are still available in modern form Sturmey Archer hubs, Carradice bags, Brooks saddles. With a modern frame and some Velo Orange one could make a fairly reasonable re rendering a little more faithful to the original.
I have a 1952 Rudge Aero Special which was made as a Rudge-branded clone of the 1952 Raleigh Super Lenton. This was probably the top Clubman-type of the model year, except for the more rare and dear Record Ace. In that year Raleigh used straight 531 throughout, slack angles (71 seat tube 73 head angle), a lot of fork offset (trail is about 38 mm with 27x1 ¼ tires), and long top tubes. What's real close in the more modern world is the early pre-1973 Super course, similar vintage Raleigh International, and the 1969 Raleigh Competition. Of course the International and the Competition have lighter tubesets and nice, supple rides. Super Courses and Internationals had a little steeper seat tube angles and long chainstays. I can say the '73 Super Course is rather similar to the Rudge. Another similar frame is the Peugeot UO-8 pre1973. My 1971 Peug has 71 deg seat tube angle and 72 deg head angle and very low trail. The earlier Super Course was supplied with 27x1 ¼, but I mainly recall the Internationals supplied (in Chicago at least) with tubulars. The original '50s Raleighs are challenging because of using special Raleigh BB threading and headset dimensions, and of course the Peug used French dimensions.

I'd also consider using other fully db 531 British frames that you find have attractive frame angles, top tube, fork rake, chainstay length, and wheel clearances. My 1980 Woodrup Giro is fully db 531 (, 44 cm chainstays, 74 degree seat tube, 73 head tube and trail around 45 mm, and was originally sold with 27x1 ¼. The steep seat tube is more suitable to modern saddles. The 50s frames had Brooks saddles as standard, and for me the 71 deg seat tube is perfect for a Brooks due to the saddle's very limited fore-aft adjustment range (all Brooks single-rail models). I can manage this with a deep-setback seatpost such as a Nitto S-84, but this is a costly item for a seatpost.

Looking at geo charts for Bob Jackson, Woodrup, Mercian and others could get you some additional ideas.

Also perhaps some existing US builders would replicate your 1958 Raleigh or my 1952 Rudge for a reasonable price in lugged double-butted construction. You could perhaps even go with heat-treated standard-diameter tubing with thinner walls, for a flexier more lively ride that might approximate the behavior of 753 thinwall tubing.

Loads of interesting options!

Using old 3-speed frames is attractive, because it seems from the spec sheets that most 26" "Clubman-style" bikes were roadsters (Raleigh Superbe or DL-1) or light roadsters like a Raleigh Sport equipped with drop bars, B17 clone saddles, and possibly different brake levers.

You can peruse spec sheets and a lot of excellent timely and modern commentary in Peter Kohler's series of blogs, for example this one: https://on-the-drops.blogspot.com/20...erne-1952.html. By looking through this stuff you can also get some perspective on how this type of bike was evolved up to the 1958 model year you are using as a model.
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Old 09-18-19, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
Steyr Clubman.
even has clubman on the downtube
slack angles, simple
@repechage, do you have any numbers for the angles and tube lengths?
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Old 09-18-19, 09:43 AM
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I sort of did that, but with a heavy stove pipe frame from an Armstrong 3-speed. I used a Sturmey AW (wide-range 3-speed) hub with a long axle and 14-16-18-20 Cyclo cogblock and an early Campag. Record rear derailleur with a downtube-mounted old style Simplex shift lever. I tucked the 3-speed trigger under/inboard of the left brake lever on the drop bars, to facilitate double shifts. Transfer that whole concept to any proper lightweight slack geometry road frame (my 1959 Capo would work, if Austrian, like the Steyr Clubman, is OK), substitute aluminum 27" rims for my 26" steels, and you have it.
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Old 09-18-19, 01:24 PM
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In for this build. Great topic and I'm happy to see how many others here are interested in the Clubman era machines. Raleigh 531 Reynolds anything is rare and expensive here, so like others I am building one this winter as well. With a sturmey hub, Brooks saddle, and old carradice bag, I figure it'll be close enough.

I'm gonna use my Peugeot A08 in '70s red. It is in my size, my favourite Peugeot colour, and it's a common bike so I can lock it up outside in town. It also has a great ride and the original drivetrain is worn out. I have a '53 sturmey FW (four speed wide ratio) hub and a Maillard 700 pro front hub. I'll re size the drop outs and build a wheelset. I can't decide between 700c or 650b. My 1950 Superbe is such a comfy ride on 650a. Maybe my commuter and town bike should be comfy too. Good luck and have fun.
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Old 09-18-19, 02:11 PM
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...here is a photo of an early Raleigh Super Course. It seems to me to have about all the inherited characteristics of the Lenton Grand Prix, albeit with an upgraded fork and a slightly less ornate paint and decal presentation. They used to be pretty commonly available, and more numerous because of their early 70's origin, as opposed to 1950's. What's nice about this choice is you can still find them with the original cottered cranks, if you want that as a feature.




If you really wanted to go hog wild, you can get decals that approximate the Lenton ones from H Lloyd in the UK. https://h-lloyd-cycles.myshopify.com...raleigh+Lenton

You'd need to mask the lugs and head badge, and paint the head tube to get that look. But that's not difficult to do.
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Old 09-18-19, 02:23 PM
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Just about any English roadster can be made into a Clubman style bike

Basic 50's era Raleigh....but the decal reads deLux



And a 30's era Hercules done up with period bits




Skip the paint, patina ads an air of authenticity.

or go all out and build up a hybrid hub gear....very British if not particularly useful.

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Old 09-18-19, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...here is a photo of an early Raleigh Super Course. It seems to me to have about all the inherited characteristics of the Lenton Grand Prix, albeit with an upgraded fork and a slightly less ornate paint and decal presentation. They used to be pretty commonly available, and more numerous because of their early 70's origin, as opposed to 1950's. What's nice about this choice is you can still find them with the original cottered cranks, if you want that as a feature.




If you really wanted to go hog wild, you can get decals that approximate the Lenton ones from H Lloyd in the UK. https://h-lloyd-cycles.myshopify.com...raleigh+Lenton

You'd need to mask the lugs and head badge, and paint the head tube to get that look. But that's not difficult to do.
Agreed. I bought a SC MK II for just this reason (not a clone, but Clubman style) because the bones are good. Also, as previously mentioned, any 50s-70s British road bike will likely provide what you need. Keep us posted!
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Old 09-18-19, 06:31 PM
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Wow! so much info to chew over. Thanks everyone for all the links and suggestions - I now feel I have a lot of bikes to consider and scout for. Just what I need, another bike project
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Old 09-18-19, 06:46 PM
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According to Peter Kohler, the 1950 Raleigh Clubman had 71° seat and 73° head angles (the two year's previous models were more slack). My '73 Raleigh SuperCourse, which I've built up as a Clubman-style bike with 5-speed IGH and drop bars has 73° parallel angles:



An early 70s SuperCourse is a great platform for this concept, given the stamped dropouts without a derailleur hanger and that they're plentiful and can usually be had for pretty small money. I've had a '50 and '51 Raleigh Clubman (currently have a '49), and the SuperCourse has a very similar ride.
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Old 09-18-19, 07:32 PM
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Watch the C&V sales, there are 2 frames being sold by @nlerner for a nice price and could be built into a nice derailleur based Clubman style bike.
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Old 09-18-19, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
According to Peter Kohler, the 1950 Raleigh Clubman had 71° seat and 73° head angles (the two year's previous models were more slack). My '73 Raleigh SuperCourse, which I've built up as a Clubman-style bike with 5-speed IGH and drop bars has 73° parallel angles:



An early 70s SuperCourse is a great platform for this concept, given the stamped dropouts without a derailleur hanger and that they're plentiful and can usually be had for pretty small money. I've had a '50 and '51 Raleigh Clubman (currently have a '49), and the SuperCourse has a very similar ride.
yeah, as I was saying or trying to, you may have to use a setback seatpost to get a Brooksie set back where it would be with the 71 degree seat tube.
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Old 09-18-19, 08:41 PM
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My first choice would be a Raleigh Grand Sports. But there are a lot of 1970's frames with good tubing and plain dropouts without a derailer hanger. Lambert, Viscount, Falcon, Dawes, even Holdsworth... probably every bike factory in England had something along those lines.
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Old 09-19-19, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
Steyr Clubman.
even has clubman on the downtube
slack angles, simple
+1
The JC Higgins Clubman label sold by Sears Roebuck, made by Steyr (Austria c.1957).

Sans mudguards
Sporting 3x3x2
Aluminum non hooked bead rims, Michelin 28".

Come to think of it, this bike deserves a ride today ;")



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Old 09-19-19, 11:22 AM
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That Higgins is very cool!

Slack angles? Knockaround level? Easily set up as IGH, or SS? Fenders? Hmmm...



...an EF Schwinn can play all those games.
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Old 09-21-19, 09:48 PM
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From the "rains when it pours" department:

Had a frustrating week trying to conclude deals on CL for a clubman like project bike (CL is weird). Finally found a roadster on FB marketplace and refreshingly completed the sale this morning with little fan fair. Even if the clubman idea doesn't work out it has great patina. Oddly, it came with a Bendix 2speed coaster that someone retrofitted along the way. I'm ok with that as the mix match now gives me more license to be creative with it.







The serial number and a weathered City of Vancouver registration decal date it pretty close to 1948










Later today one of the CL sellers finally got back to me and we met up for a second buy. This one is a little more interesting...







No idea what it is yet but it has a 3 speed early derailer with a flip flop fixed gear on the other side.







The serial is confusing as it seems to be from convention 2 1951 but the rest of the bike seems older. The seller seemed to think it was 43 but ?





The only problem is those forks! I suppose I can straighten them with a hammer...

I'm good for project bikes now

Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-21-19 at 09:53 PM.
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