FordTrax

I am in my 50s and have been biking for about 1.5 years - I ride about 3-4 times a week during the longer days and this time a year try to get in 1-2 rides outside. I spin about 2 times a week during the summer and 3-4 times a week now when I cannot ride outside as much.

I have two bikes - a Salsa Casserole and a Black Mountain Cycles (BMC) Road Bike. The BMC Road bike is what I think they call Endurance Road bikes. I have the BMC Road set up with 105 11 speed, a rear rack and small rack bag, and 32mm Panaracer Gravel King SK (which I love). I ride my BMC most all the time. Usually 30-35 miles at between 13-15 mph. I know that does not sound that fast but when I started out 1.5 years ago I was a 10mph guy so my speed and fitness is coming up. Not really trying to go faster just riding for fun and fitness and am finding I just go faster.

With that background. I would like to get a more aggressive/faster bike setup. I love my BMC setup with the rear rack and wider tires - it is great for the 13mph social club rides. It is really comfortable to ride and the frame seems to suck up the vibration - of course it is on 32mm tire too.



I really like steel frames and see no need to go to carbon - I know about them and know plenty of folks riding them - but they just don't interest me. I really like and am comfortable with a steel frame.

I was thinking of getting a Fairdale Goodship. It looks decently more aggressive than my BMC looking at the geometry. It would have a carbon fork and I believe can take only up to a 28mm tire. Clearly no a full on race bike by any stretch.

I was wondering if anyone here had any experience with the Fairdale Goodship - riding or at least taking a hard look at it?


Any experience with Fairdale in general?

Also Fairdale says they are using a seamless drawn right tube set which is 4130 with a heat treated. Is that basically equal to a Tange Prestige steel?

Sure would appreciate your thoughts?

mstateglfr 

Black Mountain frames are excellent quality- heat treated seamless double butted .8/.5/.8 tubing. The Fairdale is also heat treated seamless double butted tubing. I would bet it has the same butting profile too. The marketing for Fairdale is great and they really nailed the idea that their tubing is unique and custom, but it isnt. The custom drawn aspect is nothing new or unique.
Both frames are really great quality.

I compared the geometry for both frames and just didnt see much of a difference. 1cm chainstay difference, a few mm bottom bracket difference, a .5 degree frame geometry angle...but nothing that will make you faster on the Fairdale.

Remove the rack and bag. Thatll drop 3-4 pounds.
Get 28mm(which often measure 30mm) Continental GP4000sII tires for $80 overseas. Thatll drop 150g.
Get a Whiskey no7 carbon fork from Universal Cycles for $350. Thatll drop 550g.

You will have a bike thats 4.5-5.5 pounds lighter.
Get another headset(i assume you have a cane creek 40) and you can more easily swap between forks if you like.

Also look at wheelsets. $300-400 will get you a quality wheelset that could drop another 1 pound off your bike if your current wheelset is 2000g.

The Fairdale is really nice and if you want a new bike- go for it. I just offer this option up as an alternative since you clearly like your current bike and this would make it both lighter and faster. Itd be faster not just because of the weight savings, but also because the tires have less rolling resistance.

Fame to frame- you are a wash in my view. I have a BMC gravel frame, have looked into a road frame a dozen times, and have looked seriously at Fairdale many a time too- i just dont think there is something magical with a Fairdale that will make a rider faster when the Black Mountain can be built up to go fast for a lot less $. $500 spent for about 5 pounds saved and less rolling resistance.


Good news is you cant lose regardless of your decision. You have an awesome bike and you are looking to buy an awesome bike. Great problem to have!
Below is a pic of a current gen road frame with a Whiskey fork i pulled off of Varley's Black Mountain facebook page. I like the black fork with black components look.

trailangel

Interesting claim BMC uses seamless. I have tried to find this info. Could you point me to a source?
Goodship shorter chainstay, might not take larger tires, looks like it has short reach brakes.

BMC long/medium reach brakes. I would just keep the BMC, maybe spend $ on new wheelset.

shelbyfv

I think you'll realize a huge difference by swapping out the SKs for something lighter and smooth. I really like the smooth Gravelkings in 28, not as happy with the 32s.

FordTrax

Don't mean to imply I did not like my BMC - I really like the BMC as is. Some of our club rides end up on less than stellar pavement or even a short gravel section. The 32s are great for the unexpected and at 215lbs the 80 psi is nice. I don't think I would really change much of anything on this bike. The rack/bag are great - if I want mini-Binoculars I have space for them, Kind Bars check, rain jacket check, I carry a small fairly complete tool kit and have a mini-pump snapped on the rack itself. I kind of love having a rack/bag. I guess I have it built as kind of a 1/2 way endurance road/gravel grinder type of thing. I don't know how many miles I put on that thing since I built it this summer - maybe 1000 or more.

The Goodship would just be built as a fast(er) road bike - for when I was confident of the route I/we were taking. Although I have found tar/chip on roads I have ridden like 2 days prior - so I guess you really never know. And I would build it up as light as possible without getting too crazy on weight vs price thing. I can still lose a lot of weight of me. I don't really think a bike can make you a whole lot faster I kind of think a lot of that is on you. But maybe easier or more fun to go faster.

The Goodship would be my first carbon fork I think that would save a bunch of weight right there. Scrap the rack/bag save a bunch more (but I might miss it). Slightly lighter wheel set a little bit. Then 28mm tires - I would probably stay with my Panaracer SKs just narrower.

chaadster

@mstateglfr made a lot of interesting claims I’d like to see some substantiation for, including that the Fairdale custom tubeset isn’t, and that its butt profile is the same as the BM tubeset.

And yeah, BM is a better abbreviation because BMC is already taken by BMC.

chaadster

The geometry numbers are significantly different. Looking at each in size 56 for example, the BM has a 15mm shorter head tube, 30cm longer seat tube, and 18mm longer chainstays. In fact, I'd say there is no element of the geometry where I'd say there is not "much of a difference."

I'd say that looking at road bike geometry, in isolation, to make a rider faster is the wrong paradigm. The numbers will give you a sense of how a bike might feel and handle, and if you know the body of the rider, insight into how the the fit will be. Knowing that stuff, if you know how the rider likes their setup, how they ride, and their strengths and weaknesses, you could look at the numbers and begin to see how geometry will play into their riding style, and ideally, optimize their output for greater speed (probably in specific circumstances rather than overall). I think it is meaningless, though, to look at a geometry chart and say one set of numbers is faster than another.

mstateglfr 

It's heat treated tubing and I've looked inside for a seam, but can't see one.
- I haven't seen seamed tubing that's heat treated before.
- I don't see a seam on the inside, though it could be incredibly well blended and better blended than any seamed tubing I've seen before.
- I quick Googled seamless tubing for the frame, but didn't spend time looking. I've read it is seamless, not sure if it's from Varley's blog or an outside website reviewing one of his frames.

Ok, at the risk of getting into a thread killer discussion, I said 'i would bet' that the tubing has the same butting profile.
I say this because...
- .8/.5/.8 is a common profile for current quality heat treated tubing used on Asian made frames.
- If it were something thinner and lighter, I think it would be advertised as such. With how well crafted the story is on Fairdale's site, I doubt they would miss an opportunity to further differentiate and state why their tubing is best.
- I bet it's custom based on length and not butted diameter. So a small frame uses tubing with a butted profile that is different in length from an XL frame. That is a valid benefit and also something that is worth advertising yet hardly unique to Fairdale.

Companies give specifics when their products are genuinely unique because those specifics set them apart from the competition.
Companies give vague benefits when their products are quality , but not unique, because those vague benefits make it seem like their products are better than the competition.

Again, my comments and your request for subsubstantiation are based on me saying 'i would bet'.

Fairdale created a story for its tubing just like All City and many others do and have done. AC's proprietary area code tubing is just their way of trying to create separation in a crowded marketplace of similar quality offerings. It's nothing new. Fuji, Raleigh, and others did it decades ago too.

mstateglfr 

I asked what size the OP rides and what size Fairdale is being considered because something like a 56 in both is quite different, so maybe it's one size smaller or larger in old the frames to account for the different fits between companies.
I don't thithink 18mm chainstay difference is much since that's to the back of the horizontal dropout and the wheelbase can be set shorter if desired. 1.5cm headtube difference?...meh. that isn't really something I would find to be a big difference for riding faster(the whole point of the thread).


Agreed on calling one set of geometry numbers faster than another won't have much meaning.

chaadster

What you said is:

You're not only calling them liars, and I think you should have some substantive reason for doing so. Your generalized cynicism seems, to me, to stem from some confusion about terms and process, rather than reality.

FordTrax

Sorry for starting a debate. I was just looking for some input on the Goodship. I am 6' 1/2".
I generally ride a 58cm I think I am about smack in the middle for a 58cm.

chaadster

No, the "whole point of the thread" is not going faster, and the OP explicity says as much, although I can understand the confusion when later the OP says they want a faster/more aggressive bike setup. I think you called it right when you noted the rack, but that's where I think the "faster" thing really ends. Maybe "sportier" would have been a better term, but in any case, I take it the OP just wants a pure, naked, no compromises road machine for their fastest, sportiest rides, leaving the BM for the "13mph social club rides."

The OP said they figured the Fairdale was more aggressive geometry; quicker handling, more responsive to pedal input. BM, by their own account, are concerned with making a bike comfortable as opposed to crisp and aggressive, so I think the paradigm the OP is building here makes sense. I also think the Fairdale does have more aggressive geometry; it's a tighter frame, with smaller triangles for more stiffness. Although BM don't list wheelbase, I do not see the sliding dropouts on their frame as you said they have, so I'm going to assume that the longer stays and greater fork rake under the slacker head tube does, in fact, translate to a longer wheelbase, which in general, yields more stability, less "flickability."

Calling it like it is is not to dog the BM, and the OP said they liked theirs, and found it well suited to how they use it.

chaadster

I think debate is good. It helps separate the wheat from the chaff. If there was only one truth, you could just get it from the person who has it; a discussion forum like this would be unneccessary.

mstateglfr 

Good Lord- I'm not getting into this. I didn't call the company liars. I simply think they, like other companies before and current, market their product as more unique than it is.

chaadster

Again, if you don't have some reason to assert that their tubeset is not custom drawn and butted as they claim, you shouldn't say it is not.

I think you're confused, honestly, and want a reason to resent Fairdale. That others have custom spec'd tubesets takes nothing away from Fairdale, and they don't act like they're the only ones to have, or ever have had, custom drawn tubes. They don't use the word "unique," that's your interpretation, and you're conflating the result (i.e. the tubeset resulting from their specified parameters being unique to them) and the process (i.e. the fact of having custom drawn tubes).

They have a whole page dedicated to why they feel having a custom drawn tubeset is an advantage; I doubt any of that was over your head, so what is your complaint? You don't like that they advertise the fact they spec'd their own tubeset?

If your point is that having a custom tubeset is no better than any other tubeset, say that. If your point is that having a custom drawn tubeset does not make a bike necessarily any better than one which does not have a custom drawn tubeset then say that.

Do not say that Fairdale's claim to have a custom tubeset is false when you do not have evidence that it isn't. That's wrong.

mstateglfr 

If you want a second bike, the Goodship is a really well designed and quality bike.
I don't think it will be faster than your Black Mountain if you were to set the Black Mountain up to be faster, but ibtotally get the desire to have multiple road bikes set up slightly differently.

The Goodship is really good quality.

Hope this helps.

trailangel

Well I was searching for some BMC reviews last night and found one claim 'drawn tubing" so I assume seamless.
The orange BMC looks good to me.

Nickolassc

I own a Fairdale Weekender chrome plated frameset in 58. I built it up and rode it a couple times and didn't like it all that much and now it's back to being a frame until I eventually sell it. Yes it's chromoly, but it was super stiff and rough riding. I attribute that to being overbuilt for a road bike--It's marketed for loaded touring and is a disc frame, both of those things are negatives IMO. The frameset tubing is obviously way too thick for my liking. Pretty much all chromoly has the same modulus of elasticity or stiffness, it's differentiated by the thickness of the tubing--thinner generally riding better. I'd go look at a Soma Smoothie frame if I were you, it's a very well trusted frameset with rave reviews, or save a few bucks and go find a nice Reynolds 853 steel LeMond from Ebay plus buying a NASHBAR Carbon Fork, but honestly, with your current BMC, why don't you just keep it and get a nice set of light wheels and race tires? You'd get pretty much the same results as getting another bike. Nashbar sells Vueltas at a very good price and you can always find some good high quality michellins or continentals on sale.


If you're set on a new bike, based on my experience, I wouldn't go Fairdale, but that's just me. I would go look at the new 2018 Blue Ritchey Road Logic, not only is it a beauty, but Ritchey is a very respected name in the cycling world for good reason, his brand has been putting out quality parts and bikes for decades. I'd also go look at what you can get from Waterford, another well respected maker of steel bikes.

chaadster

Seems strange to make such a broad generalization based on a different bike design made from different materials. It's kind of like steering someone away from a Specialized S-Works Venge because the Sequoia you bought sucks for crit racing. Hehe.

Nickolassc

I get it, I didn't get the same bike he's looking at, but he asked about fairdale, and some of the points still stand, as far as I know, there's no way to know the tubing thickness on the Fairdales, they can make all the claims they want about their special chromoly, but in reality, chromoly is chromoly as a material, especially unbranded chromoly where you have to assume it has bottom tier tensile strength, all that really matters to the ride is geometry and thickness and without those numbers, it's a gamble. Same goes for All City. I feel like I fell for Fairdale marketing when I could have gone with something more known from Soma, BM, Surly, etc and that's what I did: I replaced the Fairdale weekender with a New Albion Homebrew, which is virtually the same bike as the Soma Smoothie ES, except lest costly and narrow tubing and made from a known tubeset, that is, tange champion 2. The ride is twice as nice--So nice I'm selling my Cannondale synapse alloy because I no longer need or even desire to ride it.

If he were to get a known quantity, such as a used Lemond with 853 tubing, he'd probably be better off than taking a chance on a fairdale, which is just basic chromoly and nothing special. However, Lemonds are special and I see used good condition Lemond Reynolds 853 framesets with 1 1/8" carbon forks on ebay in 58, 59, and 60 right now for $299 plus shipping.

Nickolassc

OP, actually, now that I see the bike is going for nearly half off at $1199 and $1299 for 2 of the 3 models with SRAM force, I'd say it may be worth taking a chance on. You can always resell at minimal loss if you purchase at that price, if it were to come to that...I wasn't happy with my weekender, but it doesn't mean you won't be happy with your Goodship. Good luck.

chaadster

I don't make most of the assumptions you make here, and wouldn't be comfortable making the conclusions you do even if I did. I'm definitely not comfortable making generalizations based on unknowns.

What I do know is that Fairdale is an Odyssey brand, as in Odyssey BMX, the company which revolutionized BMX with their 41 Thermal forks back in the '90s. Using a post-weld heat treating process, they made-- and still do-- light and strong forks, so strong, in fact, they've offered a lifetime warranty since they were intro'd. Sunday is probably the best street BMX brand out there, and they use the 41 Thermal tubes for their legendary, unbreakable frames. Point being, Fairdale has some serious metalworking chops behind the brand, and it's straight-up foolish to presume their marketing copy on the Drawnright tubes is just fluff and untrue.

JohnDThompson 

Could be. Tange Prestige tubing was heat-treated Champion tubing, much as Reynolds 753 tubing was heat treated 531 tubing. Prestige tubing was available in quite a few wall thicknesses and diameters, so it's difficult to say how closely it would resemble the tubing Fairdale uses.


Re: seamed versus seamless tubing. In the dim, dark past, seamed tubing was regarded with some derision, but that shouldn't be the case any more. Since the mid 1980s, seamed tubing for bicycle frames has been cold-drawn after rolling and welding the tube to obliterate the seam, resulting in a tube indistinguishable from seamless tubing but less expensive to manufacture.

chaadster

Oh, @FordTrax if you haven't seen this thread:

https://www.bikeforums.net/clydesdal...hip-today.html

Nickolassc

Who really knows how good their tubing is? All I have to go on is the ride, which I wasn't happy with and so far I'm the only one here who has stated they've actually owned and ridden a Fairdale product. Where can I find more info beyond vague marketing fluff on their tubing such as tensile strength, butted section lengths and thicknesses? I can find all that for Tange and Reynolds tubing.

OP should still get one, at the sale prices on their website, they are a great deal.