Can the frame be indentified by measurements only...?
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bedfordshire, England
Posts: 116
Bikes: Peugeot (753r frame-1989), Raleigh (Reynolds 653-1991).
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Can the frame be indentified by measurements only...?
Hi all,
I previously posted this under 'Mercian or Carlton; this time I have added more detail in terms of measurements.
I've had the frame pictured below for a number of years, given to me by my brother-in-law. There is no marking or serial number upon the frame or forks, and when it was given to me the only clue to its original colour was a hint of metallic red on the steerer. I did contact Mercian as their lugs look very similar to the ones on my frame. Mercian thought it was a Campionissimo from between 69-74. I did ask them whether they would ever let a frame leave the factory with no serial numbers, but the thread went dead. I'm not convinced it is a Campionissimo. I live in Bedfordshire and there was a frame builder in the next county (TEW Reynolds) who also used similar lugs in the 60's-70's so I thought it could be one of theirs...but they just don't quite match. In a last attempt to get some form of identification I have taken extensive measurements in the hope that someone will take a guess at the quality of the steel, which may then point me in a direction....
Top tube ext. diameter 25.93mm
Down Tube " 28.77mm
Seat tube " 28.90mm
Head tube " 31.97mm; wall thickness 2.77mm; inside diameter 29.99mm
Chainstay " 22.32mm (at BB); 13.00mm at drop out
Seat stay " 13mm (seat post end); 10.55mm at drop out
Bottom Bracket " 39.94mm; wall thickness 3.22mm; inside diameter 33.12mm
Seat tube lug thickness: 3.40mm; inside diameter 26.27mm
Frame weight: 2.41kg (5.32lbs)
Fork weight: 920g (32.5oz)
Any help in anyway to get a handle on this frame would be really welcome. It rides beautifully and as a winter frame with Suntour and ofmega group set it's a joy; just wish I could badge it up as well.
Many thanks
Gerald
I previously posted this under 'Mercian or Carlton; this time I have added more detail in terms of measurements.
I've had the frame pictured below for a number of years, given to me by my brother-in-law. There is no marking or serial number upon the frame or forks, and when it was given to me the only clue to its original colour was a hint of metallic red on the steerer. I did contact Mercian as their lugs look very similar to the ones on my frame. Mercian thought it was a Campionissimo from between 69-74. I did ask them whether they would ever let a frame leave the factory with no serial numbers, but the thread went dead. I'm not convinced it is a Campionissimo. I live in Bedfordshire and there was a frame builder in the next county (TEW Reynolds) who also used similar lugs in the 60's-70's so I thought it could be one of theirs...but they just don't quite match. In a last attempt to get some form of identification I have taken extensive measurements in the hope that someone will take a guess at the quality of the steel, which may then point me in a direction....
Top tube ext. diameter 25.93mm
Down Tube " 28.77mm
Seat tube " 28.90mm
Head tube " 31.97mm; wall thickness 2.77mm; inside diameter 29.99mm
Chainstay " 22.32mm (at BB); 13.00mm at drop out
Seat stay " 13mm (seat post end); 10.55mm at drop out
Bottom Bracket " 39.94mm; wall thickness 3.22mm; inside diameter 33.12mm
Seat tube lug thickness: 3.40mm; inside diameter 26.27mm
Frame weight: 2.41kg (5.32lbs)
Fork weight: 920g (32.5oz)
Any help in anyway to get a handle on this frame would be really welcome. It rides beautifully and as a winter frame with Suntour and ofmega group set it's a joy; just wish I could badge it up as well.
Many thanks
Gerald
Last edited by maiello; 04-19-19 at 08:45 AM. Reason: Clarification
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,223
Mentioned: 654 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4722 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3,036 Times
in
1,874 Posts
The best way way to "indentify" a frame, is to strike it with a heavy object.
#3
Señor Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hardy, VA
Posts: 17,923
Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1491 Post(s)
Liked 1,090 Times
in
638 Posts
No serial on the steerer either?
What diameter seat post?
What diameter seat post?
__________________
In search of what to search for.
In search of what to search for.
#4
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,394
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,694 Times
in
2,516 Posts
looks like he measured 26.27mm seatpost.
#7
Senior Member
#8
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bedfordshire, England
Posts: 116
Bikes: Peugeot (753r frame-1989), Raleigh (Reynolds 653-1991).
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bedfordshire, England
Posts: 116
Bikes: Peugeot (753r frame-1989), Raleigh (Reynolds 653-1991).
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
If it were a Mercian then posibly could be 531. I did check Reynolds dimensions, and they weren't quite a match: sometimes outside diameter was lower than Reynolds, some time higher only by a decimal point, so possibly given human involvement could be 531. Not heard of Durifort....
#10
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bedfordshire, England
Posts: 116
Bikes: Peugeot (753r frame-1989), Raleigh (Reynolds 653-1991).
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18371 Post(s)
Liked 4,507 Times
in
3,350 Posts
There are some measurements such as headbadge holes that are apparently very representative of brands. But, lacking those features, one goes by overall features of the bike.
Also, identifying threads, post sizes, & etc, could help identify the tubing and country of origin.
Identifying the dropouts may also help narrow down both the age of the frame, as well as potentially builders or country of origin.
Also, identifying threads, post sizes, & etc, could help identify the tubing and country of origin.
Identifying the dropouts may also help narrow down both the age of the frame, as well as potentially builders or country of origin.
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,828 Times
in
1,995 Posts
rear dropouts appear closer to stamped than forged, but does have a derailleur tab, machined cable stops for shift cables adjacent to the bottom bracket.
LONG top eyes, "production" effort to the lugs... My conjecture straight gauge tubing... But, double check the seat lug ears are not distorted inward.
shine a bright light down the head tube looking for headbadge fastener holes. My feeling is this is older than younger.
LONG top eyes, "production" effort to the lugs... My conjecture straight gauge tubing... But, double check the seat lug ears are not distorted inward.
shine a bright light down the head tube looking for headbadge fastener holes. My feeling is this is older than younger.
#14
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bedfordshire, England
Posts: 116
Bikes: Peugeot (753r frame-1989), Raleigh (Reynolds 653-1991).
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
There are some measurements such as headbadge holes that are apparently very representative of brands. But, lacking those features, one goes by overall features of the bike.
Also, identifying threads, post sizes, & etc, could help identify the tubing and country of origin.
Identifying the dropouts may also help narrow down both the age of the frame, as well as potentially builders or country of origin.
Also, identifying threads, post sizes, & etc, could help identify the tubing and country of origin.
Identifying the dropouts may also help narrow down both the age of the frame, as well as potentially builders or country of origin.
Last edited by maiello; 04-20-19 at 02:57 AM.
#15
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bedfordshire, England
Posts: 116
Bikes: Peugeot (753r frame-1989), Raleigh (Reynolds 653-1991).
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#16
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bedfordshire, England
Posts: 116
Bikes: Peugeot (753r frame-1989), Raleigh (Reynolds 653-1991).
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
rear dropouts appear closer to stamped than forged, but does have a derailleur tab, machined cable stops for shift cables adjacent to the bottom bracket.
LONG top eyes, "production" effort to the lugs... My conjecture straight gauge tubing... But, double check the seat lug ears are not distorted inward.
shine a bright light down the head tube looking for headbadge fastener holes. My feeling is this is older than younger.
LONG top eyes, "production" effort to the lugs... My conjecture straight gauge tubing... But, double check the seat lug ears are not distorted inward.
shine a bright light down the head tube looking for headbadge fastener holes. My feeling is this is older than younger.
Last edited by maiello; 04-20-19 at 02:54 AM.
#17
Shifting is fun!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 11,003
Bikes: Yes, please.
Mentioned: 280 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2197 Post(s)
Liked 4,599 Times
in
1,764 Posts
Nice frame! Any idea where it might have come from?
Unmarked frames from the seventies and eighties are quite common in my area. Most came from Belgium, where a number of shops and factories produced frames for others to brand and sell. They were made at various quality levels, from very mundane Flandrias to pro spec Martens one-offs.
Unmarked frames from the seventies and eighties are quite common in my area. Most came from Belgium, where a number of shops and factories produced frames for others to brand and sell. They were made at various quality levels, from very mundane Flandrias to pro spec Martens one-offs.
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Niagara Region, Canada
Posts: 1,455
Bikes: 1970s Alex Singer, 1960s Peugeot PX 10, 1960s Bertin C37, 1973 Carre Bertin C 37, 1972 Carlton Kermesse, 1981 Peugeot PX 14 Super Competition
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Liked 266 Times
in
157 Posts
maiello -
It looks like one of the better mid-range Carltons from the very late 60s or 70s. The tells are the Crespera lugs, the Vagner DP+ style crown, the post style cable stops and the use of the Zeus stamped dropouts which are all characteristic of that period of Carlton construction. The tubing is likely to have been TI TruWell 205 plain gauge hi-tensile which seems consistent with the weights you provided. Try the Veteran Cycle Club's on line catalogues here: Veteran-Cycle Club Online Library
It looks like one of the better mid-range Carltons from the very late 60s or 70s. The tells are the Crespera lugs, the Vagner DP+ style crown, the post style cable stops and the use of the Zeus stamped dropouts which are all characteristic of that period of Carlton construction. The tubing is likely to have been TI TruWell 205 plain gauge hi-tensile which seems consistent with the weights you provided. Try the Veteran Cycle Club's on line catalogues here: Veteran-Cycle Club Online Library
#19
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bedfordshire, England
Posts: 116
Bikes: Peugeot (753r frame-1989), Raleigh (Reynolds 653-1991).
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Nice frame! Any idea where it might have come from?
Unmarked frames from the seventies and eighties are quite common in my area. Most came from Belgium, where a number of shops and factories produced frames for others to brand and sell. They were made at various quality levels, from very mundane Flandrias to pro spec Martens one-offs.
Unmarked frames from the seventies and eighties are quite common in my area. Most came from Belgium, where a number of shops and factories produced frames for others to brand and sell. They were made at various quality levels, from very mundane Flandrias to pro spec Martens one-offs.
#20
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bedfordshire, England
Posts: 116
Bikes: Peugeot (753r frame-1989), Raleigh (Reynolds 653-1991).
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
maiello -
It looks like one of the better mid-range Carltons from the very late 60s or 70s. The tells are the Crespera lugs, the Vagner DP+ style crown, the post style cable stops and the use of the Zeus stamped dropouts which are all characteristic of that period of Carlton construction. The tubing is likely to have been TI TruWell 205 plain gauge hi-tensile which seems consistent with the weights you provided. Try the Veteran Cycle Club's on line catalogues here: Veteran-Cycle Club Online Library
It looks like one of the better mid-range Carltons from the very late 60s or 70s. The tells are the Crespera lugs, the Vagner DP+ style crown, the post style cable stops and the use of the Zeus stamped dropouts which are all characteristic of that period of Carlton construction. The tubing is likely to have been TI TruWell 205 plain gauge hi-tensile which seems consistent with the weights you provided. Try the Veteran Cycle Club's on line catalogues here: Veteran-Cycle Club Online Library
https://images.app.goo.gl/Q52yJenbPwADqDrA8
Last edited by maiello; 04-20-19 at 08:49 AM.
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18371 Post(s)
Liked 4,507 Times
in
3,350 Posts
That's the shame of it: no identifying marks, holes, numbers or names... Just quite distinctive lugs. The dropouts look to be pressed steel, no branding. That's why I wonder whether a local frame builder got hold of the tubes. Don't know if this helps in anyway, but I've attached a pic of the inside of the bottom bracket.
One might note that my Colnago Super has all the proper clover cutouts, but no serial numbers or other markings.
I read some speculation once that Colnago may have deliberately not serialized the early frames to fudge taxes.
#22
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bedfordshire, England
Posts: 116
Bikes: Peugeot (753r frame-1989), Raleigh (Reynolds 653-1991).
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I always think of small backyard frame building when something obscure shows up. However, few small builders are working with pressed steel dropouts, at least today.
One might note that my Colnago Super has all the proper clover cutouts, but no serial numbers or other markings.
I read some speculation once that Colnago may have deliberately not serialized the early frames to fudge taxes.
One might note that my Colnago Super has all the proper clover cutouts, but no serial numbers or other markings.
I read some speculation once that Colnago may have deliberately not serialized the early frames to fudge taxes.
I think I'm the closest I will ever get: 60's - 70's Carlton; either a long fellow with heavy 531 as it says in the catalogue, or maybe a Clubman with straightforward plain gauge. If not more specific decals, I'd be happy to badge it as a Carlton, particularly as I am a fan of the Raleigh brand as well.
#23
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bedfordshire, England
Posts: 116
Bikes: Peugeot (753r frame-1989), Raleigh (Reynolds 653-1991).
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Well... Committed to the Carlton badge. All set to be kitted out for winter.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Greenwood SC USA
Posts: 2,252
Bikes: 2002 Mercian Vincitore, 1982 Mercian Colorado, 1976 Puch Royal X, 1973 Raleigh Competition, 1971 Gitane Tour de France and others
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 823 Post(s)
Liked 1,395 Times
in
694 Posts
The lugs look like Bocama products to me, like some variant of the model 80 - perhaps a variant dropped by the time they printed this catalog, which shows similar lugs -
#25
Shifting is fun!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 11,003
Bikes: Yes, please.
Mentioned: 280 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2197 Post(s)
Liked 4,599 Times
in
1,764 Posts
Excellent! Looking forward to the rest of the build.