Schwinn Paramount? Need help identifying this frame!!!
04-22-18, 02:09 PM
#51
smelling the roses
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We're all immigrants, no?
04-22-18, 02:25 PM
#53
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I probably should have emphasized "Belgian"? If Arnold Schwinn had asked Rene Herse to design the Paramount line it would be a different bicycle altogether?
Some Native Americans would disagree, but sure, we are all immigrants from somewhere else. Go back far enough and no one is native anywhere, with the possible exception of "Lucy"?
We're all bozos on this bus.
Some Native Americans would disagree, but sure, we are all immigrants from somewhere else. Go back far enough and no one is native anywhere, with the possible exception of "Lucy"?
We're all bozos on this bus.
04-22-18, 04:56 PM
#55
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I probably should have emphasized "Belgian"? If Arnold Schwinn had asked Rene Herse to design the Paramount line it would be a different bicycle altogether?
Some Native Americans would disagree, but sure, we are all immigrants from somewhere else. Go back far enough and no one is native anywhere, with the possible exception of "Lucy"?
We're all bozos on this bus.
Some Native Americans would disagree, but sure, we are all immigrants from somewhere else. Go back far enough and no one is native anywhere, with the possible exception of "Lucy"?
We're all bozos on this bus.
One of my favorite comedy albums.
04-22-18, 05:14 PM
#56
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No worries, I agree the pic added to the fray, maybe it was a Schwinn thing when they ordered a boatload they got ones with the no. so Nervex could go along for the ride.
While I agree there is plenty here that says not a Paramount, BUT also seems there is plenty that says what the heck IS going on here, maybe Schwinn, Paramount, Wastyn, something going on.
Again, what do I know.
While I agree there is plenty here that says not a Paramount, BUT also seems there is plenty that says what the heck IS going on here, maybe Schwinn, Paramount, Wastyn, something going on.
Again, what do I know.
I owe you, (and others I am sure), an apology; I should not have been so snarky.
We posted minutes apart. I would have deleted mine for being redundant, but with the photo I thought it brought a little something extra to the table?
I don't know that other builders using that lug removed the Nervex numbers, but I sure don't see them often.
His track bikes do seem to have some consistency. The chain stays are rounded while the seat stays are pointy. Outside the track bikes, there seems to be more variance.
As an aside, I've always found it interesting that the quintessential "American" quality bicycle was designed by a Belgian immigrant.
We posted minutes apart. I would have deleted mine for being redundant, but with the photo I thought it brought a little something extra to the table?
I don't know that other builders using that lug removed the Nervex numbers, but I sure don't see them often.
His track bikes do seem to have some consistency. The chain stays are rounded while the seat stays are pointy. Outside the track bikes, there seems to be more variance.
As an aside, I've always found it interesting that the quintessential "American" quality bicycle was designed by a Belgian immigrant.
04-22-18, 06:26 PM
#57
Full Member
I probably should have emphasized "Belgian"? If Arnold Schwinn had asked Rene Herse to design the Paramount line it would be a different bicycle altogether?
Some Native Americans would disagree, but sure, we are all immigrants from somewhere else. Go back far enough and no one is native anywhere, with the possible exception of "Lucy"?
We're all bozos on this bus.
Some Native Americans would disagree, but sure, we are all immigrants from somewhere else. Go back far enough and no one is native anywhere, with the possible exception of "Lucy"?
We're all bozos on this bus.
But I digress, a lovely frame, with undoubtedly a great story. Restore it and give it another life.
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A want is not a need, so I have more bikes than I need, but not nearly what I want...+1
04-22-18, 06:56 PM
#58
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This is an inanimate steel object. Unless there is paperwork etc. It is just what it is.
A notion or fun theory is just that.
I dabble in antique arms, and unless you can prove it was Abe Lincolns revolver, it is just a revolver. Any "story" just goes in one ear and out the other. I have heard it all!
Anyway, by the common knowledge that we have today, it's not a Paramount in all likelihood.
A notion or fun theory is just that.
I dabble in antique arms, and unless you can prove it was Abe Lincolns revolver, it is just a revolver. Any "story" just goes in one ear and out the other. I have heard it all!
Anyway, by the common knowledge that we have today, it's not a Paramount in all likelihood.
04-22-18, 07:41 PM
#59
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Dud
This is an inanimate steel object. Unless there is paperwork etc. It is just what it is.
A notion or fun theory is just that.
I dabble in antique arms, and unless you can prove it was Abe Lincolns revolver, it is just a revolver. Any "story" just goes in one ear and out the other. I have heard it all!
Anyway, by the common knowledge that we have today, it's not a Paramount in all likelihood.
A notion or fun theory is just that.
I dabble in antique arms, and unless you can prove it was Abe Lincolns revolver, it is just a revolver. Any "story" just goes in one ear and out the other. I have heard it all!
Anyway, by the common knowledge that we have today, it's not a Paramount in all likelihood.
As Wastyn designed the Paramount, all Paramounts are to some extent Wastyns. If Wastyn made Paramounts outside Schwinn facilities, are they still Paramounts? Absolutely, as the first Paramount was made in Wastyn's shop. Are all Wastyns Paramounts? Absolutely not. Is this a Wastyn Paramount? Maybe, as the level of craftsmanship and finish is consistent with Wastyn's work, and not so much with what came out of Schwinn's workshop.
You may not know whether Lincoln owned a particular firearm, but you'd likely be able to tell if Colt, (or Lincoln), made it?
04-22-18, 08:00 PM
#60
Senior Member
^ agreed.
If anything I'd lean towards more likely this is a Paramount, or at least a Wastyn. Not sure what incentive anyone would have to disguise an equivalent quality bike with a fake paramount paint job in the 60s. High end bikes were not really a big thing then.
Seems like the main argument I'm hearing is the head badge holes are wrong. An alternate explanation could be as simple as the head badge fell off and someone put on a standard Schwinn badge as a replacement at some point.
The campy grand sport dropouts with a spring hole are consistent with all the ~58 to ~64 paramounts I've been able to find pictures and specs of. Rounded stay ends are also consistent.
If anything I'd lean towards more likely this is a Paramount, or at least a Wastyn. Not sure what incentive anyone would have to disguise an equivalent quality bike with a fake paramount paint job in the 60s. High end bikes were not really a big thing then.
Seems like the main argument I'm hearing is the head badge holes are wrong. An alternate explanation could be as simple as the head badge fell off and someone put on a standard Schwinn badge as a replacement at some point.
The campy grand sport dropouts with a spring hole are consistent with all the ~58 to ~64 paramounts I've been able to find pictures and specs of. Rounded stay ends are also consistent.
04-22-18, 10:34 PM
#61
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Unless Lincoln was a gunsmith, your argument misfires. The question at hand is who made the bicycle, not who owned it.
As Wastyn designed the Paramount, all Paramounts are to some extent Wastyns. If Wastyn made Paramounts outside Schwinn facilities, are they still Paramounts? Absolutely, as the first Paramount was made in Wastyn's shop. Are all Wastyns Paramounts? Absolutely not. Is this a Wastyn Paramount? Maybe, as the level of craftsmanship and finish is consistent with Wastyn's work, and not so much with what came out of Schwinn's workshop.
You may not know whether Lincoln owned a particular firearm, but you'd likely be able to tell if Colt, (or Lincoln), made it?
As Wastyn designed the Paramount, all Paramounts are to some extent Wastyns. If Wastyn made Paramounts outside Schwinn facilities, are they still Paramounts? Absolutely, as the first Paramount was made in Wastyn's shop. Are all Wastyns Paramounts? Absolutely not. Is this a Wastyn Paramount? Maybe, as the level of craftsmanship and finish is consistent with Wastyn's work, and not so much with what came out of Schwinn's workshop.
You may not know whether Lincoln owned a particular firearm, but you'd likely be able to tell if Colt, (or Lincoln), made it?
Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt the assumption on this frame? If not, then it is just conjecture.
It's merely a steel frame without any known or accepted hallmarks.
04-22-18, 10:39 PM
#62
Senior Member
Its just an illustration. I know it's a Colt, because it says so right on it, and it has every hallmark. The rub is when someone tries to give it something past what it is.
Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt the assumption on this frame? If not, then it is just conjecture.
It's merely a steel frame without any known or accepted hallmarks.
Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt the assumption on this frame? If not, then it is just conjecture.
It's merely a steel frame without any known or accepted hallmarks.
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04-22-18, 10:47 PM
#63
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It's not definitive. That's my beef. It may be a long lost Paramount, but until something new comes to light via records or something, it's still just a frame.
04-22-18, 10:55 PM
#64
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04-22-18, 11:00 PM
#65
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Dud Again
Its just an illustration. I know it's a Colt, because it says so right on it, and it has every hallmark. The rub is when someone tries to give it something past what it is.
Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt the assumption on this frame? If not, then it is just conjecture.
It's merely a steel frame without any known or accepted hallmarks.
Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt the assumption on this frame? If not, then it is just conjecture.
It's merely a steel frame without any known or accepted hallmarks.
"Preponderance of evidence" is the standard of civil court.
Unless this bicycle killed someone, then I suggest it's a civil matter and we try to keep it such. We do try to keep things civil here, don't we?
The subject bicycle has many "known or accepted hallmarks", which have been documented and referenced and discussed in this thread.
(In no logical universe are the choices "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" or "pure conjecture". Maybe in Perry Mason's Universe, but you know that's a TV show, right?)
"This bicycle has been framed, Your Honour!"
(Sorry.)
Last edited by machinist42; 04-22-18 at 11:17 PM. Reason: altered title
04-23-18, 12:09 AM
#66
Senior Member
The iteration of Paramount is only in the Paramount Shop...
Wastyn is Wastyn not paramount
If my lathe at home has a 100 thousand run out and the shop has a 10 thousand run out... my skillset is the same but i am on better equipment on my lathe at home so whatever I might have done in the shop is not relevant. Different equipment space and time.
Wastyn is Wastyn not paramount
If my lathe at home has a 100 thousand run out and the shop has a 10 thousand run out... my skillset is the same but i am on better equipment on my lathe at home so whatever I might have done in the shop is not relevant. Different equipment space and time.
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04-23-18, 12:12 AM
#67
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A Jury of what? Peers?
Man you don't even know what peerage is....
I would take this case and it would not be a paramount
Man you don't even know what peerage is....
I would take this case and it would not be a paramount
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04-23-18, 03:33 AM
#68
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A Rose By Any Other Name?
The iteration of Paramount is only in the Paramount Shop...
Wastyn is Wastyn not paramount
If my lathe at home has a 100 thousand run out and the shop has a 10 thousand run out... my skillset is the same but i am on better equipment on my lathe at home so whatever I might have done in the shop is not relevant. Different equipment space and time.
Wastyn is Wastyn not paramount
If my lathe at home has a 100 thousand run out and the shop has a 10 thousand run out... my skillset is the same but i am on better equipment on my lathe at home so whatever I might have done in the shop is not relevant. Different equipment space and time.
So, are "Mainland built Paramounts" Paramounts?
"1981-2 Schwinn Superior
Built using frames and frame components (Nervex lugs and Reynolds 531 tubing) that were remaining when Schwinn stopped Paramount production in Chicago (due to quality issues) in 1979." (Superiors were built by Mainland. An example of his brazing style:
Schwinn Superior circa 1981
An example of Wastyn's:
[IMG]
40's Schwinn Wastyn Paramount Track by Michael Mucha, on Flickr[/IMG]https://www.flickr.com/photos/michae...7645736415391/
The above example is a Paramount, a Wastyn Paramount. I wonder if this Wastyn is a Schwinn Paramount? Now who could one ask? Why look, there's Richard Schwinn holding the frame! (As he was providing a Paramount headbadge to the restorer, the question is entirely rhetorical, and somewhat snarky and sarcastic.)
[IMG]
Richard Schwinn with Wastyn Paramount Track Bike by Michael Mucha, on Flickr[/IMG]
04-23-18, 06:35 AM
#69
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04-23-18, 07:00 AM
#70
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...and let's cease all the gun debate before the moderators lock the thread.
I'd like to encourage the originators of those posts to go back and delete them because they add nothing to the discussion about the OP's bike's ID.
Let's stay on topic and unearth the identity of this fine example of frame craftsmanship.
I'd like to encourage the originators of those posts to go back and delete them because they add nothing to the discussion about the OP's bike's ID.
Let's stay on topic and unearth the identity of this fine example of frame craftsmanship.
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04-23-18, 07:02 AM
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@machinist42, your pictures are priceless!
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04-27-18, 02:32 AM
#72
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I've seen people here amazingly ID a frame and I'm sure your's will be too.Welcome to bikeforums. A good wipe down of the frame could reveal an otherwise faint SN. Also measure the distance between the holes in your headtube. It had a headbadge on it at one time and I've seen frames identified that way also.
the headbadge holes on the head tube are 2.5 inches apart!
thanks for the info.
04-27-18, 02:44 AM
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04-27-18, 02:58 AM
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Holly Macchiaroli!!!!!
thanks for the replies! i apologize for droppin out of this discussion but it's been a hectic week.
the wealth of knowledge ya'll have provided is incredible!
ok, here's some pics and info. the word is this bike and it's box of parts have been sitting untouched since the early to mid 70's up until i acquired them.
i'm posting pics of all the stuff that came with it, sadly there doesn't seem to be a derailer in sight but here's everything else. i will check this thread more frequently now that my schedule has cleared up and answer any other questions that may arise. btw the headbadge holes are 2.5 inches apart and it doesn't seem like any other holes had been filled unless they did a perfect job of filling them.
maybe some of the accessories may help date it as they definitely came with the bike as far as i know...
once again, i can't receive pm's here because of the rules but maybe that will change.
thanks for the replies! i apologize for droppin out of this discussion but it's been a hectic week.
the wealth of knowledge ya'll have provided is incredible!
ok, here's some pics and info. the word is this bike and it's box of parts have been sitting untouched since the early to mid 70's up until i acquired them.
i'm posting pics of all the stuff that came with it, sadly there doesn't seem to be a derailer in sight but here's everything else. i will check this thread more frequently now that my schedule has cleared up and answer any other questions that may arise. btw the headbadge holes are 2.5 inches apart and it doesn't seem like any other holes had been filled unless they did a perfect job of filling them.
maybe some of the accessories may help date it as they definitely came with the bike as far as i know...
once again, i can't receive pm's here because of the rules but maybe that will change.
04-27-18, 03:17 AM
#75
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for some reason i'm bikeforums seems to be not allowing me to post pics anymore? is that possible? i will log out and try again tomorrow, i have a bunch of pics to show everybody...
thanks again!
thanks again!