Manufacture Date of Schwinn Paramount Pista (early 60s?)?
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Manufacture Date of Schwinn Paramount Pista (early 60s?)?
Hey there Bikeforum C&V members.
I recently picked up a Schwinn Paramount pista frameset. It's in rough condition (lots of scrapes/scratches and a couple of TT dings), but still has the original paint. It has wonderful patina!
I'm trying to nail down the year of manufacture and admittedly am a bit confused. The frameset has Nervex lugs and BB, but doesn't have Campy dropouts. The left rear dropout is stamped "D66" which would place it somewhere around mid 1960 according to the Waterford site. Could this be correct? I would have thought that perhaps the bikes would have been built with Campagnolo dropouts by that point, but may be wrong. It has the later style Schwinn Paramount graphics on it with the little "star" between Schwinn and Paramount. It also has the Paramount cottered crankset.
Does 1960 sound about right? Once I figure out my picture posting issues, I'll put a couple pics up.
Thanks!
Texbike
I recently picked up a Schwinn Paramount pista frameset. It's in rough condition (lots of scrapes/scratches and a couple of TT dings), but still has the original paint. It has wonderful patina!
I'm trying to nail down the year of manufacture and admittedly am a bit confused. The frameset has Nervex lugs and BB, but doesn't have Campy dropouts. The left rear dropout is stamped "D66" which would place it somewhere around mid 1960 according to the Waterford site. Could this be correct? I would have thought that perhaps the bikes would have been built with Campagnolo dropouts by that point, but may be wrong. It has the later style Schwinn Paramount graphics on it with the little "star" between Schwinn and Paramount. It also has the Paramount cottered crankset.
Does 1960 sound about right? Once I figure out my picture posting issues, I'll put a couple pics up.
Thanks!
Texbike
Last edited by texbike; 06-27-19 at 08:10 PM.
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#3
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For some reason, I'm not able to upload the pics. I'll mess with them more this weekend when I have some time.
I am leaning toward the mid 1960 production date as suggested on the Waterford site. I'm just surprised that it doesn't have the Campagnolo dropouts. However, the paint on the bike looks almost exactly like this one (in both style AND condition...) - https://www.flickr.com/photos/velocl...n/photostream/ .
Thanks!
Texbike
I am leaning toward the mid 1960 production date as suggested on the Waterford site. I'm just surprised that it doesn't have the Campagnolo dropouts. However, the paint on the bike looks almost exactly like this one (in both style AND condition...) - https://www.flickr.com/photos/velocl...n/photostream/ .
Thanks!
Texbike
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For some reason, I'm not able to upload the pics. I'll mess with them more this weekend when I have some time.
I am leaning toward the mid 1960 production date as suggested on the Waterford site. I'm just surprised that it doesn't have the Campagnolo dropouts. However, the paint on the bike looks almost exactly like this one (in both style AND condition...) - https://www.flickr.com/photos/velocl...n/photostream/ .
Thanks!
Texbike
I am leaning toward the mid 1960 production date as suggested on the Waterford site. I'm just surprised that it doesn't have the Campagnolo dropouts. However, the paint on the bike looks almost exactly like this one (in both style AND condition...) - https://www.flickr.com/photos/velocl...n/photostream/ .
Thanks!
Texbike
Also - Paramount cottered crankset, or Stronglight cottered crankset?
PM me and we can swap email addresses for the pics.
-Kurt
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They're definitely not Campy dropouts. The style and profile is completely different. They look like the drop-outs on this earlier Paramount: https://ratrodbikes.com/forum/index....ck-bike.26451/ . Nervex or Chater Lea maybe?
The cranks are Schwinn Paramount branded. They look like this (but not nearly as nice...) - Schwinn Paramount Cranks ? Underground Bicycle Shop .
I'll send you my email.
Thanks,
Texbike
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Hey Kurt,
They're definitely not Campy dropouts. The style and profile is completely different. They look like the drop-outs on this earlier Paramount: https://ratrodbikes.com/forum/index....ck-bike.26451/ . Nervex or Chater Lea maybe?
The cranks are Schwinn Paramount branded. They look like this (but not nearly as nice...) - Schwinn Paramount Cranks ? Underground Bicycle Shop .
I'll send you my email.
Thanks,
Texbike
They're definitely not Campy dropouts. The style and profile is completely different. They look like the drop-outs on this earlier Paramount: https://ratrodbikes.com/forum/index....ck-bike.26451/ . Nervex or Chater Lea maybe?
The cranks are Schwinn Paramount branded. They look like this (but not nearly as nice...) - Schwinn Paramount Cranks ? Underground Bicycle Shop .
I'll send you my email.
Thanks,
Texbike
E16 looks like any other early, second-gen Paramount, but there are a few touches on the dropouts that aren't on Wanda Omelian's frames (from "The Cage"). Richard Schwinn confirmed that Oscar Wastyn built E16, so it is most likely that Mr. Wastyn built your D66, and used the same track ends as the first-gen Paramounts for it.
I'm tagging folks from the E16 thread here so they cam chime in; pretty sure they'll be interested in this discovery. @Ct03911, @merziac, @pastorbobnlnh, @trainman999.
-Kurt
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My E16 1960 Wastyn build Paramount
70’s style Paramount dropout details as supplied to me by Richard Schwinn for comparison. I’ve also heard 70’s frames had silver solder but I don’t see that here and Richard made no mention of it. I’m not sure when silver was used, just passing along a comment I’ve heard that silver joints could possible help date a bike.
80’s and later Paramount dropout style as supplied to me by Richard Schwinn.
My E16 1960 before restoration.
A later repaint, as I bought it, wrong decals etc.
Waterford restoration. Sky Blue.
My 1960 was confirmed by Richard Schwinn to be a Wastyn build primarily due to the pointed stay joint on the rear dropout. I know Richard spoke with the Wastyn’s but if they used other identifying marks I do not know. The rear dropout was what I was told was identifying.
Last edited by Ct03911; 06-29-19 at 09:05 AM.
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My 1960 was confirmed by Richard Schwinn to be a Wastyn build primarily due to the pointed stay joint on the rear dropout. I know Richard spoke with the Wastyn’s but if they used other identifying marks I do not know. The rear dropout was what I was told was identifying.
By the way, the Sebo Paramount resto is to die for. Love it.
-Kurt
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Thanks! Great comparison pics and beautiful bike! The bike that I have has the pointed stays as well. I'll work to get the pics posted today.
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texbike Frame 871 and C 49 both have the older style rear fork ends with pointy stays K80 has Campagnolo ends. So sometime between K80 and yours they probbly used up the supply older track fork ends and switched yo Campagnolo. Does your front fork have pointy forkblade ends and Campagnolo droupouts?
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A few pics of the bike
Here are a few pics......
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texbike Frame 871 and C 49 both have the older style rear fork ends with pointy stays K80 has Campagnolo ends. So sometime between K80 and yours they probbly used up the supply older track fork ends and switched yo Campagnolo. Does your front fork have pointy forkblade ends and Campagnolo droupouts?
My F54 P12 already shows the domed ends of a Chicago bike, but since both the Wastyn and Chicago Paramounts used Campagnolo 1010 drops, that really doesn't say much of anything.
First off...that is beautiful. Making me all warm and fuzzy
Secondly, those stay ends are definitely Wastyn, which essentially explains the track ends too.
-Kurt
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Very cool Paramount, you lucky dog.
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A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
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It’s definitely seen better days, but it should make a nice wall hanger/occasional rider. It has a couple of dings in the top tube but they don’t seem too bad. I’ll get it cleaned up and gone through in the next few weeks.
Thanks for the guidance and sanity check on the production date.
Texbike
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Thanks for posting this, sharing its back story of three generations, and providing additional data points on "outsourced" Paramounts.
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871 would have been a Wastyn and it's use of these dropouts would be a given. Question is, did Schwinn use up the hardware from Wastyn or did they start fresh at The Cage? K80 is already a '62. Richard Schwinn said production changed somewhere mid-'60.
My F54 P12 already shows the domed ends of a Chicago bike, but since both the Wastyn and Chicago Paramounts used Campagnolo 1010 drops, that really doesn't say much of anything.
First off...that is beautiful. Making me all warm and fuzzy
Secondly, those stay ends are definitely Wastyn, which essentially explains the track ends too.
-Kurt
My F54 P12 already shows the domed ends of a Chicago bike, but since both the Wastyn and Chicago Paramounts used Campagnolo 1010 drops, that really doesn't say much of anything.
First off...that is beautiful. Making me all warm and fuzzy
Secondly, those stay ends are definitely Wastyn, which essentially explains the track ends too.
-Kurt
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cudak888 Do you think the Wastyn's are buying tube sets , lugs, and ends 25-50 at a time to build Paramounta or do you think Schwinn is buying 500-1000 sets at a time and the Wastyn's bring completed frames to the factory and leave with kits to build more? Do you think Schwinn would sell them at or near cost the tubes, ends , and maby the lugs they need for there own frames? Read the 58-79 Paramount History on the waterford site. https://waterfordbikes.com/the-classic-era-1958-79/ If you don't want the Wastyn's to have anything to do with the Paramounts can you think of a better way than to tell Reynolds you want pointy ends on the stays and forks on your next order of 700+ tube sets to differenciate them. I don't know if the 1958 ,1959 or the 1960 date is correct for the end of Wastyn"s building but I do find it interesting that frame 871 is in the 1957-1958 time frame when they are thinking of ditching the Wastyn"s. Frame E16 may be a Wastyn because braized with brass , A52 is Silver soldered. Always more questions than answers
Keep in mind that the Paramount story as presented on the Waterford site is highly simplified and Keith Kingbay's "war cry" is only one popularized, emotional reaction surrounding this event.
While it may be fun (and make good business for Waterford) to spice up nostalgia by pulling angry soap opera tidbits for Paramount history - making the Schwinn "takeover" sound like something out of a 1950's version of The Wolf of Wall Street - one has to remember a few things:
- This was a business decision involving more than one person. Not everyone may have shared Kingbay's aggressive sentiments.
- Kingbay's comments may have been purely a business argument, bombastic as it may sound, and was made with no personal rancor towards the Wastyns themselves.
- The Wastyns were obviously not offended by Schwinn's ultimate retirement of their services, as they remained a dealer in good standing otherwise.
- The story comes from Waterford - in other words, Schwinn. You're getting the Schwinn side of the story...exclusively.
Greco may not have known the difference either. It's admitted in the article that he and Brilando had all of six months to learn and understand framebuilding, without the help of old masters. This was also the age of mail-order. Did they have a Reynolds catalog full of pictures on hand? There was no https://www.reynoldstechnology.biz/ for them back then. They might have ordered the round ends to avoid a mistake with the first year of production.
Let's also not forget that the Waterford website continues to point out that "Frank started production in 1959" but has never clarified this story (except in emails to individual owners) to indicate that Wastyn frames were obviously not phased out until mid-1960. Were the unfinished frames removed from the Wastyn shop and sitting around between '59 and '60? Most likely, and these two frames are probably part of that batch.
Did Schwinn also pick up all the framebuilding bits at the same time? Who knows? They were under a production crunch, which means they might have bought everything in advance and didn't need the Wastyn bits...or they scooped up their bits when they picked up the frames to help with Cage production. It's all conjecture, and only Richard Schwinn may have the answer.
Also - these last Wastyn frames are already built in the "new" Paramount style - no keyhole lugs, no 1930's fork crowns, and the same treatment as a '60 Chicago Paramount on everything except these fork ends. Methinks the Wastyns were well aware of the New Paramount For Schwinn project well in advance.
-Kurt
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