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Can anyone identify the manufacturer of this frame?

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Can anyone identify the manufacturer of this frame?

Old 06-28-20, 11:22 AM
  #26  
juvela
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thanks very much for these new and improved photo images; they shuold prove a big help for readers wishing to give you information regarding the frame

---

crown appears to show a clear "family resemblance" to the example posted in the MILREMO illustration above

---

steerer -

check interior from underside to see if there is rifling; seven spiral ridges equal Columbus tubing

when you have headset disassembled please check steerer for any markings

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head tube -

with headset disassembled please check head tube interior for any signs of head emblem fastener holes being filled in. if present, please note arrangement and distance apart.

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bottom bracket shell -

appears to be same model illustrated in MILREMO image posted earlier

interesting to note that chain stays are pinned

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eyelets -

find their absence puzzling. frame predates trend of eyelet removal by some years. Campag was not offering the 1010 set of ends without them at this time. suspect they were removed post-manufacture and prior to present respray. see if you can detect marks of their removal on edges of frame ends.

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Old 06-28-20, 01:51 PM
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Thanks for the reply. This process is reminding me of the many things that I am not, one being a good photographer. I also have a finicky wife who does not like greasy finger prints on the walls of the house (too clean fingers). I will follow your advice on areas of focus for future posted pictures.
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Old 06-28-20, 01:58 PM
  #28  
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Right. Un-rideable in the state I received; rust and old dirt everywhere. Had to do some cleanup before putting it back together. I will show some after pics and rebuild.
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Old 06-29-20, 06:06 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by T.McD.
Right. Un-rideable in the state I received; rust and old dirt everywhere. Had to do some cleanup before putting it back together. I will show some after pics and rebuild.
Go down to local Pep Boys and buys some Evaporust, consider checking website for 25% off order and pickup locally. Do a search on how to use evaporust on bike frames if you are looking to remove the rust globally.

In my experience, your long point lugs suggest Italian. Someone (like me) is not too far from you (you're in Lakewood California?) and a quick trip by someone with a Campagnolo crank puller tool will reveal the bottom bracket threading.
If you take a thin rag with a little solvent or even just WD40, you can clean the interspace between the bottom bracket cups and the inner crank surface. Then with a decent smartphone camera, a lot of light or sunlight, and using the smartphone camera's auto focusing (or tapping the displayed part on the screen) you'll get a nice almost magnified look into the interspace. The optical or digital zoom feature on modern smartphones makes for easy looks into tight places. Here's one of my shots to see a BB threading markings:


Another to show seat lug details:


This photo and my photo contributions to this thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...-frame-id.html
were all shot using my iPhone XS in my loft using overhead 3000-3300K LED lighting, and occasionally the smartphone flash. I usually used the normal 1X setting and composed or framed the shot to give me a closeup view of the frame section I'm trying to show. Occasionally I would switch to 2X optical zoom or more to get details like lug lining. The key is to have as much light as possible to show detail. On my iPhone, there is the ability to also change the brightness of the picture and choose from about 10-15 darker to lighter versions of the same shot, very helpful in trying to get the visual representation of detail just right for use or study. Of course, a steady hand, good optics and vision of your own eyes, and a sharp large smartphone display to see and judge the pictures you've taken is very important. If you can't see that your picture is already blurred or less than detailed, the only way you can tell is then to transfer to your computer (email) and see it on a large monitor. Then the pic's quality becomes very apparent. It takes a bit of trial and error but your photographic skills will improve quickly, unlike my typing skills which have had about 15 misspellings or mis-typings while I've written this paragraph at 5 am!!

Part of the issue here is the format of the serial number. The placement on the top right side of the seat tube is not common, nor is the good imprinting of the numbers. I'm inclined to say this looks a bit like a Torpado product but they usually used flat crowns on their mid level products. You might look into this thread for some comparisons to Italian frames:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...i-talians.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...r-torpado.html
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Old 06-29-20, 06:32 AM
  #30  
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Oh, one other thing. The slight haze in your photos suggest the lens on your camera or smartphone needs a quick cleaning. The haze is present in many shots.
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Old 06-29-20, 06:36 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by mech986
Go down to local Pep Boys and buys some Evaporust, consider checking website for 25% off order and pickup locally. Do a search on how to use evaporust on bike frames if you are looking to remove the rust globally.

In my experience, your long point lugs suggest Italian. Someone (like me) is not too far from you (you're in Lakewood California?) and a quick trip by someone with a Campagnolo crank puller tool will reveal the bottom bracket threading.
If you take a thin rag with a little solvent or even just WD40, you can clean the interspace between the bottom bracket cups and the inner crank surface. Then with a decent smartphone camera, a lot of light or sunlight, and using the smartphone camera's auto focusing (or tapping the displayed part on the screen) you'll get a nice almost magnified look into the interspace. The optical or digital zoom feature on modern smartphones makes for easy looks into tight places. Here's one of my shots to see a BB threading markings:


Another to show seat lug details:


This photo and my photo contributions to this thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...-frame-id.html
were all shot using my iPhone XS in my loft using overhead 3000-3300K LED lighting, and occasionally the smartphone flash. I usually used the normal 1X setting and composed or framed the shot to give me a closeup view of the frame section I'm trying to show. Occasionally I would switch to 2X optical zoom or more to get details like lug lining. The key is to have as much light as possible to show detail. On my iPhone, there is the ability to also change the brightness of the picture and choose from about 10-15 darker to lighter versions of the same shot, very helpful in trying to get the visual representation of detail just right for use or study. Of course, a steady hand, good optics and vision of your own eyes, and a sharp large smartphone display to see and judge the pictures you've taken is very important. If you can't see that your picture is already blurred or less than detailed, the only way you can tell is then to transfer to your computer (email) and see it on a large monitor. Then the pic's quality becomes very apparent. It takes a bit of trial and error but your photographic skills will improve quickly, unlike my typing skills which have had about 15 misspellings or mis-typings while I've written this paragraph at 5 am!!

Part of the issue here is the format of the serial number. The placement on the top right side of the seat tube is not common, nor is the good imprinting of the numbers. I'm inclined to say this looks a bit like a Torpado product but they usually used flat crowns on their mid level products. You might look into this thread for some comparisons to Italian frames:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...i-talians.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...r-torpado.html

A fellow early riser. Excellent reply and excellent advice. I have a crank puller on order. Since this is my first attempt at stripping and rebuilding, I am purchasing a lot of tools. Regarding the rust, most of the clean-up is done; all the bright work has been cleaned and polished and is ready to go back on the bike. I've been waiting for the crank puller to get at the bottom bracket but will use the method you described to get some pictures with better detail today. I appreciate the input. You are close. I am familiar with La Habra. Very convenient if I hit a snag with the build.
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Old 06-29-20, 02:59 PM
  #32  
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A few more pictures...

Here are some clearer shots of the BB. Also removed the fork and found no markings other than the dropout as shown. Look forward to your comments.







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Old 06-29-20, 03:04 PM
  #33  
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Lens cover is broken on the phone. might have something to do with the poor quality photos (any excuse).
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Old 06-29-20, 04:10 PM
  #34  
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Judging on the exterior shots and the equipment on the bike, lI would say this is probably a top tier model from a large producer.
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Old 06-29-20, 05:39 PM
  #35  
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Components...










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Old 06-29-20, 11:09 PM
  #36  
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-----

fine job with all of the new imagery; thanks so much!

a big help for readers.

---

returning to the crown -

here is another example as worn by a Cinelli model B dated 1954 -




Silca frame pump in image of interest as well. It exhibits the rubber plug in the handle that the older Imperos had. This can be removed with fingers so that spare spokes can be stored inside the hollow shaft.

Business end of pump also of interest as it shows the old Silca cast metal presta head -




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spanner twisting tip -

in the early images posted when headset was in place it appears headset design has an adjustable race which requires a horizontal pin tool to hold/turn. since locknut was shown loose in the photos the tool would not have been required for removal but will be needed for reassembly and adjustment. there are lots of inexpensive tools available for this application from Park, VAR and other manufactuers.

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Old 06-30-20, 08:15 AM
  #37  
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In case I missed anyone else saying this, sorry; but the BB is definitely Italian thread: 36 x 24F.
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Old 06-30-20, 09:53 AM
  #38  
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Yep, ^ as Charles says, clearly this frame is Italian. And has Campy forkends but a non-rifled steerer so perhaps was not "full" Columbus SL/SP, or at least a builder that used a plain steerer for that fork. In case I missed it: is that LaPrade seatpost stamped 27.2?
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Old 06-30-20, 10:18 AM
  #39  
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it is good to keep in mind that an Italian dimension shell does not always indicate an Italian manufactured frame/bicycle

for instance there have been mfrs in Mexico who employed this thread

it has also been used by some artisanal U.S. makers such as Albert Eisentraut, all of his products have Italian threaded shells, including the Limiteds

Merckx frames/cycles produced in Belgium have Italian threading
there are some other Belgian manufactured bikes which are also done with Italian threads

do not wish to suggest that subject cycle made in Mexico, Belgium or the U.S.; mention it only a something of which to be aware...

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Old 07-01-20, 02:27 AM
  #40  
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Thanks @juvela, your knowledge continues to amaze me. Where do you get your knowledge or data for lugs and frame details?

The use of Campanolo fork ends suggests at least upgraded fork Tubing so I wouldn't be surprised if the fork Tubing is also Columbus. We forgot to ask if there is a marking on the 172.5 mm Campagnolo Record cranks after Strada indicating year of production of the crank. The mix of later 3 hole Super Record front Derailleur and 2nd generation Rally rear derailleur would suggest the bike was rebuilt a few times with a number of touring parts transplants.

Super Record drilled brake levers, yet the brake calipers are Dia-Compe. The pedals are Kyokuto Top Run and seatpost is SR Laprade, yes important to figure out what size it is marked which will suggest a Columbus tubing type, assuming its double butted. The 30mm seat post diameter originally quoted should be checked with a caliper or at least a known good metric ruler. Or it should have stamped markings on it.
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Old 07-01-20, 06:34 AM
  #41  
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chainset note -

have been thinking that if bottom bracket assembly is Record pattern there is a possibility it may be original

alternately, if it is instead Nuovo Record then it is slightly too late for frame

chainset itself, being 144 bcd appears a bit late for frame

---

the headset is the one component i can imagine as being original to the cycle

-----
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Old 07-01-20, 07:14 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by mech986
Thanks @juvela, your knowledge continues to amaze me. Where do you get your knowledge or data for lugs and frame details?

The use of Campanolo fork ends suggests at least upgraded fork Tubing so I wouldn't be surprised if the fork Tubing is also Columbus. We forgot to ask if there is a marking on the 172.5 mm Campagnolo Record cranks after Strada indicating year of production of the crank. The mix of later 3 hole Super Record front Derailleur and 2nd generation Rally rear derailleur would suggest the bike was rebuilt a few times with a number of touring parts transplants.

Super Record drilled brake levers, yet the brake calipers are Dia-Compe. The pedals are Kyokuto Top Run and seatpost is SR Laprade, yes important to figure out what size it is marked which will suggest a Columbus tubing type, assuming its double butted. The 30mm seat post diameter originally quoted should be checked with a caliper or at least a known good metric ruler. Or it should have stamped markings on it.

Took a few sketchy pics of the crank this morning. I have a caliper and will take some shots of the measurements later today. I appreciate the continued interest.


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Old 07-01-20, 11:09 AM
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Just the facts so far...

The mystery of this bike intrigues me. Purchased in the 80s at a garage sale. Originally had Schwinn Paramount decals. Components are mixed with a wide range of quality. No braze-ons. Rare fork crown and uncommon headset. Italian dropouts and BB threading. As yet unique frame number placement and font. Maybe not of this world.

Prepping the fork for paint. The brass brazes aren't tidy. Is that typical? The original paint color can be seen in the over-spray (root-beer brown). The seat tube measure is included. I'm sure you will correct me if I'm measuring it wrong. This is a great process for me. I'm learning by doing and learning from this group. I look forward to your comments.







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Old 07-02-20, 05:41 AM
  #44  
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I wonder if those long tangs were added to the fork instead of being original. The brazing seems very sloppy considering the lug work looks good.

Do you have a caliper measurement on the seat post itself? The seat tube looks close to 26.8.

Also, the lack of any date codes on the cranks indicate they were made before 1973 and after 1968 (I think) when the 144 bcd versions were introduced.
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Old 07-02-20, 08:29 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by mech986
I wonder if those long tangs were added to the fork instead of being original. The brazing seems very sloppy considering the lug work looks good.

Do you have a caliper measurement on the seat post itself? The seat tube looks close to 26.8.

Also, the lack of any date codes on the cranks indicate they were made before 1973 and after 1968 (I think) when the 144 bcd versions were introduced.
Tangs: Agreed, thought it looked more custom than mass produced. But why stamp it with a frame (serial) number then? From a layman's perspective it is curious.
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Old 07-03-20, 10:51 PM
  #46  
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Might have found it..

Guerciotti

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Old 07-04-20, 05:52 AM
  #47  
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-----

cycle in photo has different bottom bracket shell and seat stay treatment than the subject frame

see plug nr. 509 below -




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Old 07-04-20, 06:28 AM
  #48  
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Thanks for clarifying. Interesting that there are so many similarities though. This manufacturer appears to be the only one I have found that uses the right side of the seat tube near the top and under the lug to stamp the frame number in a descending direction. Is that rare?
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Old 07-04-20, 08:38 AM
  #49  
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-----

there are a number of Italian producers who place the serial on the side of the seat tube just below the seat lug

some place it on the drive side and some on the non-drive side

Cesare Rizzato (Atala, Atlantica, Corso, Lygie, Maino & others) places it on the drive side also but in a rising rather than descending order

here are two examples on Rizzato built Maino badged cycles -





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Old 07-04-20, 11:51 AM
  #50  
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I'm learning with every post. Still, the fonts don't match. The two examples you provide seem more typical of the fonts used in frame numbers. Have you seen other frames with the the same font as mine? You (Juvela) were in a similar Bikeforums discussion last year regarding an unidentified frame with similar characteristics. The font of that frame number is closer to mine. I don't believe that one was ever specifically identified either.
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