Unknown vintage can anyone help?
05-12-20, 08:30 PM
#1
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Unknown vintage can anyone help?
While I'm waiting for a cassette to arrive to finish off my Mercian I thought I'd start work on an unidentified frame I bought on ebay a few years ago.
I noticed that the lugs seem odd, fancy cut out lugwork on the headset, some lugwork on the top of the down tube and top tube but no lugwork anywhere else on the bike or forks. No guides for cables and no serial number on the bb shell which is 68mm English Threaded.
Just thought I'd throw up a post to see if anyone might have any ideas on what it might be.
Frame and forks
Lug on top tube
Side view top tube lug
Headset lugs 1
Headset lugs 2
Headset lugs 3
Seat tube and stays
BB shell, no lugs on bottom of tubes
No number on BB shell
This pentagon is on the underside of the down tube. A cable guide?
I noticed that the lugs seem odd, fancy cut out lugwork on the headset, some lugwork on the top of the down tube and top tube but no lugwork anywhere else on the bike or forks. No guides for cables and no serial number on the bb shell which is 68mm English Threaded.
Just thought I'd throw up a post to see if anyone might have any ideas on what it might be.
Frame and forks
Lug on top tube
Side view top tube lug
Headset lugs 1
Headset lugs 2
Headset lugs 3
Seat tube and stays
BB shell, no lugs on bottom of tubes
No number on BB shell
This pentagon is on the underside of the down tube. A cable guide?
Last edited by Karl T; 05-16-20 at 07:24 PM.
05-12-20, 09:00 PM
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05-12-20, 10:03 PM
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Nope, no idea but SOMEbody liked that thick purple paint enough to pour it over everything, including the HS bottom cup. I wonder if the fork has aluminum blades/crown (the steerer looks rusty so that much is steel). There are a few things that ring a "Viscount" or "Lambert" bell, but...Viscount would not have a BSC threaded shell...no firm idea yet! What size seatpost?
05-13-20, 06:50 AM
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05-13-20, 07:03 AM
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Nope, no idea but SOMEbody liked that thick purple paint enough to pour it over everything, including the HS bottom cup. I wonder if the fork has aluminum blades/crown (the steerer looks rusty so that much is steel). There are a few things that ring a "Viscount" or "Lambert" bell, but...Viscount would not have a BSC threaded shell...no firm idea yet! What size seatpost?
Well spotted, the fork blades are aluminium (just tested them with a magnet) I'm not sure if they are the original forks or from another bike just painted up the same colour.
The seat post is slightly damaged but it's 27.5mm diameter and 60cm seat tube. I'll have a look at some Lambert bikes if I can find some pics.
05-13-20, 07:39 AM
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-----
do the faces of the dropouts bear any marking?
paint thick eno' that it may be covering them, if present
if no marking you might try looking at pictures of Cyclo (England) ends to see if you can find a match
Agrati is another maker who did ends of this pattern
a Cyclo pattern would suggest a UK origin
do dropouts match fork ends?
-----
do the faces of the dropouts bear any marking?
paint thick eno' that it may be covering them, if present
if no marking you might try looking at pictures of Cyclo (England) ends to see if you can find a match
Agrati is another maker who did ends of this pattern
a Cyclo pattern would suggest a UK origin
do dropouts match fork ends?
-----
05-13-20, 10:46 AM
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Here's some pix from CR (trademarked images) of a Lambert that has a lugged frame BUT the headlugs and seat cluster do not match, however I think the AL fork might match.I have no idea if there was ever a period in the Lambert/Viscount story in which there would ever have been a "hybrid" frame that blended the lugless Viscount contsruction with lugged Lambert, but maybe this is the "missing link"! Maybe not. 
we need some better sleuths than me! The forged (but thin) dropouts WITHOUT any RD hanger are one thing that reminds me of Lambert (and Viscount), never had a "Death fork" in my hands to note if those forkends were ever marked but IIRC the DOs were not stamped.
Lambert, DBs 1
we need some better sleuths than me! The forged (but thin) dropouts WITHOUT any RD hanger are one thing that reminds me of Lambert (and Viscount), never had a "Death fork" in my hands to note if those forkends were ever marked but IIRC the DOs were not stamped.Lambert, DBs 1
Last edited by unworthy1; 05-13-20 at 10:53 AM.
05-13-20, 12:02 PM
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-----
Lambert -
the fork would certainly be in agreement with the dropouts
had a pre-boom fully lugged Lambert frame come through which exhibited dropouts of this pattern, in this case they were Cyclo
lugs would seem to be a klinker for a Lambert ID however
every lugged Lambert can recall seeing used BOCAMA lugs, patterns varied but always BOCAMA
---
the lugs of subject frame are no pattern of BOCAMA, NERVEX or Agrati i have been able to find
they appear they might be from Takahashi Press or Miki
there was a Nippon producer who did dropouts of this pattern, IIRC it was a name like YKC or similar. one manufacturer who employed them was Kawamura.
simple test:
drop in a pair of 27" wheels and measure the brake centres
are they perchance 56 and 66?
-----
Lambert -
the fork would certainly be in agreement with the dropouts
had a pre-boom fully lugged Lambert frame come through which exhibited dropouts of this pattern, in this case they were Cyclo
lugs would seem to be a klinker for a Lambert ID however
every lugged Lambert can recall seeing used BOCAMA lugs, patterns varied but always BOCAMA
---
the lugs of subject frame are no pattern of BOCAMA, NERVEX or Agrati i have been able to find
they appear they might be from Takahashi Press or Miki
there was a Nippon producer who did dropouts of this pattern, IIRC it was a name like YKC or similar. one manufacturer who employed them was Kawamura.
simple test:
drop in a pair of 27" wheels and measure the brake centres
are they perchance 56 and 66?
-----
Last edited by juvela; 05-13-20 at 12:09 PM. Reason: spellin'
05-13-20, 08:08 PM
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-----
Lambert -
the fork would certainly be in agreement with the dropouts
had a pre-boom fully lugged Lambert frame come through which exhibited dropouts of this pattern, in this case they were Cyclo
lugs would seem to be a klinker for a Lambert ID however
every lugged Lambert can recall seeing used BOCAMA lugs, patterns varied but always BOCAMA
---
the lugs of subject frame are no pattern of BOCAMA, NERVEX or Agrati i have been able to find
they appear they might be from Takahashi Press or Miki
there was a Nippon producer who did dropouts of this pattern, IIRC it was a name like YKC or similar. one manufacturer who employed them was Kawamura.
simple test:
drop in a pair of 27" wheels and measure the brake centres
are they perchance 56 and 66?
-----
Lambert -
the fork would certainly be in agreement with the dropouts
had a pre-boom fully lugged Lambert frame come through which exhibited dropouts of this pattern, in this case they were Cyclo
lugs would seem to be a klinker for a Lambert ID however
every lugged Lambert can recall seeing used BOCAMA lugs, patterns varied but always BOCAMA
---
the lugs of subject frame are no pattern of BOCAMA, NERVEX or Agrati i have been able to find
they appear they might be from Takahashi Press or Miki
there was a Nippon producer who did dropouts of this pattern, IIRC it was a name like YKC or similar. one manufacturer who employed them was Kawamura.
simple test:
drop in a pair of 27" wheels and measure the brake centres
are they perchance 56 and 66?
-----
05-13-20, 08:36 PM
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-----
note on the combination construction of lugged head paired with lugless seat and shell -
one major manufacturer who employed this extensively in the 1960's and the early 1970's was Motobecane. it can be found on all of their badges IIRC: Astra, Dynamax, Monfort, Motoconfort, Orly, etc. also seen on the contract products they did for U.S. chainstores such as Sears. it is found only on lower models comparable to Mirage and Nobly.
do not wish to assert any connection between MB and present subject. mention it only as an example.
---
with regard to the head lugs on our subject frame would think that @T-Mar could identify them in two shakes of a lamb's tail.
-----
note on the combination construction of lugged head paired with lugless seat and shell -
one major manufacturer who employed this extensively in the 1960's and the early 1970's was Motobecane. it can be found on all of their badges IIRC: Astra, Dynamax, Monfort, Motoconfort, Orly, etc. also seen on the contract products they did for U.S. chainstores such as Sears. it is found only on lower models comparable to Mirage and Nobly.
do not wish to assert any connection between MB and present subject. mention it only as an example.
---
with regard to the head lugs on our subject frame would think that @T-Mar could identify them in two shakes of a lamb's tail.
-----
05-16-20, 07:41 PM
#13
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Thread Starter
-----
do the faces of the dropouts bear any marking?
paint thick eno' that it may be covering them, if present
if no marking you might try looking at pictures of Cyclo (England) ends to see if you can find a match
Agrati is another maker who did ends of this pattern
a Cyclo pattern would suggest a UK origin
do dropouts match fork ends?
-----
do the faces of the dropouts bear any marking?
paint thick eno' that it may be covering them, if present
if no marking you might try looking at pictures of Cyclo (England) ends to see if you can find a match
Agrati is another maker who did ends of this pattern
a Cyclo pattern would suggest a UK origin
do dropouts match fork ends?
-----
05-16-20, 07:47 PM
#14
Member
Thread Starter
Here's some pix from CR (trademarked images) of a Lambert that has a lugged frame BUT the headlugs and seat cluster do not match, however I think the AL fork might match.I have no idea if there was ever a period in the Lambert/Viscount story in which there would ever have been a "hybrid" frame that blended the lugless Viscount contsruction with lugged Lambert, but maybe this is the "missing link"! Maybe not. we need some better sleuths than me! The forged (but thin) dropouts WITHOUT any RD hanger are one thing that reminds me of Lambert (and Viscount), never had a "Death fork" in my hands to note if those forkends were ever marked but IIRC the DOs were not stamped.
Lambert, DBs 1
we need some better sleuths than me! The forged (but thin) dropouts WITHOUT any RD hanger are one thing that reminds me of Lambert (and Viscount), never had a "Death fork" in my hands to note if those forkends were ever marked but IIRC the DOs were not stamped.Lambert, DBs 1
It's a very strange mix, lugged and brazed. Can't understand why not one or the other. I'm wondering if it might have some connection to the having an aluminium fork?
05-16-20, 07:56 PM
#15
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Thread Starter
-----
Lambert -
the fork would certainly be in agreement with the dropouts
had a pre-boom fully lugged Lambert frame come through which exhibited dropouts of this pattern, in this case they were Cyclo
lugs would seem to be a klinker for a Lambert ID however
every lugged Lambert can recall seeing used BOCAMA lugs, patterns varied but always BOCAMA
---
the lugs of subject frame are no pattern of BOCAMA, NERVEX or Agrati i have been able to find
they appear they might be from Takahashi Press or Miki
there was a Nippon producer who did dropouts of this pattern, IIRC it was a name like YKC or similar. one manufacturer who employed them was Kawamura.
simple test:
drop in a pair of 27" wheels and measure the brake centres
are they perchance 56 and 66?
-----
Lambert -
the fork would certainly be in agreement with the dropouts
had a pre-boom fully lugged Lambert frame come through which exhibited dropouts of this pattern, in this case they were Cyclo
lugs would seem to be a klinker for a Lambert ID however
every lugged Lambert can recall seeing used BOCAMA lugs, patterns varied but always BOCAMA
---
the lugs of subject frame are no pattern of BOCAMA, NERVEX or Agrati i have been able to find
they appear they might be from Takahashi Press or Miki
there was a Nippon producer who did dropouts of this pattern, IIRC it was a name like YKC or similar. one manufacturer who employed them was Kawamura.
simple test:
drop in a pair of 27" wheels and measure the brake centres
are they perchance 56 and 66?
-----
The bb shell is British threaded would that be something Japanese manufacturers would use!?
If you could let me know how to measure brake centres I'll do that ASAP.
05-16-20, 08:01 PM
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Thanks for the message, yeah the paint seems thick. Is it possible that it would be thick enough to cover a serial number or did some builders just not bother with numbering?
Well spotted, the fork blades are aluminium (just tested them with a magnet) I'm not sure if they are the original forks or from another bike just painted up the same colour.
The seat post is slightly damaged but it's 27.5mm diameter and 60cm seat tube. I'll have a look at some Lambert bikes if I can find some pics.
Well spotted, the fork blades are aluminium (just tested them with a magnet) I'm not sure if they are the original forks or from another bike just painted up the same colour.
The seat post is slightly damaged but it's 27.5mm diameter and 60cm seat tube. I'll have a look at some Lambert bikes if I can find some pics.
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05-16-20, 08:01 PM
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Yes I like this thinking, those headlugs struck me as Japanese too but couldn't find a example quickly, then the other features threw me a curve (and Karl T seems to be in UK or somewhere that Euros are spent). Still it sure looks like a mutt with only headlugs, remaining joints all lugless and an oldskool aluminum fork! No idea what maker anywhere builds a frame like this. There use to be an outfit that specialized in repairs of frames that had front-end damage and they produced the opposite: lugged frames that had headtube/TT/DT with lugless "repair" joints.
I thought some sort of repair, but didn't think the frame was high end enough for someone to bother with the work involved. Found a pentagon shaped piece of metal on the underside of the down tube,(pic 10) not sure if that would help or what the purpose of the piece is other than possibly a cable guide.
Last edited by Karl T; 05-16-20 at 08:09 PM.
05-16-20, 08:08 PM
#18
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05-16-20, 08:09 PM
#19
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No idea about the frame (sorry!) but the pentagon will be for band on downtube shifters to help keep them in the same place - I believe Mercian called it a pip when I got my frame done with them.
05-16-20, 08:11 PM
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05-16-20, 08:20 PM
#21
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The previous commenter mentioning oversized tubing will be about the diameter of the tube. There's different material dimensions/properties (wall thickness/treatments) such as 531, 753, 853 etc but 631 (and maybe 853?) for example is oversized and will have a particular diameter although I can't remember it off the top of my head, or which other OS tubes are available
Last edited by stormy_ll; 05-16-20 at 08:25 PM.
05-16-20, 08:28 PM
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Diameter. 27.2 is the largest that 531 or Columbus frames get. There are some 753 frames that take 27.4, but any other tubing, exceeding 27.2 = oversized. I don't think Lambert built anything with oversized tubing. Everyone has their preferences, and I'm certain there are some who have nostalgia for Lamberts, but I think most would agree there are plenty of better bike makers. I suspect yours is one of them, though I have no idea who may have built it.
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05-16-20, 09:31 PM
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the 56 and 66 numbers mentioned earlier refer to brake centres
this measurement is taken from the centre of the braking surface on the wheel rim to the centre of the brake mounting hole
these dimensions are not definitive they are one more clue for readers to work with...
have you determined if the frame was intended for 700 size wheel or for 27"?
---
yes to your query about whether a British threaded bottom bracket shell would come on a Japan producded frame/bicycle.
---
original rear spacing was likely 120mm; the 126mm dimension probably the result of resetting
---
the pentagonal no-slide pibb is something somewhat rare on a British produced cycle. there are several shapes often seen for this job on Brit machines. by far the most common is a very narrow triangle with the base forward. the pentagonal piece is widely employed in France. on French production cycles it is often spot-welded rather than brazed.
---
looking forward to someone able to identify the lug maker and pattern...
-----
the 56 and 66 numbers mentioned earlier refer to brake centres
this measurement is taken from the centre of the braking surface on the wheel rim to the centre of the brake mounting hole
these dimensions are not definitive they are one more clue for readers to work with...
have you determined if the frame was intended for 700 size wheel or for 27"?
---
yes to your query about whether a British threaded bottom bracket shell would come on a Japan producded frame/bicycle.
---
original rear spacing was likely 120mm; the 126mm dimension probably the result of resetting
---
the pentagonal no-slide pibb is something somewhat rare on a British produced cycle. there are several shapes often seen for this job on Brit machines. by far the most common is a very narrow triangle with the base forward. the pentagonal piece is widely employed in France. on French production cycles it is often spot-welded rather than brazed.
---
looking forward to someone able to identify the lug maker and pattern...
-----
Last edited by juvela; 05-17-20 at 07:35 AM.
05-17-20, 12:36 AM
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My instant impression from the pictures was of a one-off experiment with different brazing. (not a first effort, not at all what I mean, but someone really experimenting, working out ideas.
Just my 2 cents... Cheers, Eric
Just my 2 cents... Cheers, Eric
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05-17-20, 07:29 PM
#25
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Measurements
Took measurements for the frame today.
Top tube - Diameter 26.3mm Length 53.5 cm
Seat tube - Diameter 29.8mm Length 60cm
Down tube - Diameter 28.6mm. Length 60cm
Head tube 32.8mm
BB shell internal diameter 32.8mm
Fork spacing 102mm
Thanks for all the help guys, it becomes more intriguing every day.
Top tube - Diameter 26.3mm Length 53.5 cm
Seat tube - Diameter 29.8mm Length 60cm
Down tube - Diameter 28.6mm. Length 60cm
Head tube 32.8mm
BB shell internal diameter 32.8mm
Fork spacing 102mm
Thanks for all the help guys, it becomes more intriguing every day.