Steven Hodge, VP of Cycling Australia admits to doping during his career and resigns.
10-19-12, 03:57 PM
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Steven Hodge, VP of Cycling Australia admits to doping during his career and resigns.
https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/s...doping/?cs=309
I used to race in the same amateur cycling club as Steven, The Canberra Amateur Cycling Club, although he's a few years older than me so I never raced against him directly. He's a great guy.
Anthony
I used to race in the same amateur cycling club as Steven, The Canberra Amateur Cycling Club, although he's a few years older than me so I never raced against him directly. He's a great guy.
Anthony
10-19-12, 06:56 PM
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Anthony
10-19-12, 06:56 PM
#5
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I've met Hodge, back in 2002, when he was a participant in a cycling conference in Canberra that I attended. He was affable and knowledgeable in terms of the cycling advocacy we were discussing.
It's a shame to see people so high in the sport in Australia such as Hodge and Matt White fall on their swords. But it must help clean up the sport, and now that John Fahey, who heads up WADA, has picked up on the (now-backed-away-from) Cycling Australia suggestion for an amnesty for dopers, we may find some more cleansing come out of it.
Unfortunately, I don't think Armstrong will be among them. I feel that he will end up in jail because of all this (based on false testimony), and he will still be in denial and play the victim from his cell.
It's a shame to see people so high in the sport in Australia such as Hodge and Matt White fall on their swords. But it must help clean up the sport, and now that John Fahey, who heads up WADA, has picked up on the (now-backed-away-from) Cycling Australia suggestion for an amnesty for dopers, we may find some more cleansing come out of it.
Unfortunately, I don't think Armstrong will be among them. I feel that he will end up in jail because of all this (based on false testimony), and he will still be in denial and play the victim from his cell.
10-20-12, 11:45 AM
#6
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Now this debacle created by Armstrong is taking on a new perspective with the Australian Government contemplating an inquiry into the operation of Cycling Australia and to determine the depth of this issue, something it has a right to do, based on the considerable public funding the organisation receives each year.
10-20-12, 06:45 PM
#7
Senior Member
Now this debacle created by Armstrong is taking on a new perspective with the Australian Government contemplating an inquiry into the operation of Cycling Australia and to determine the depth of this issue, something it has a right to do, based on the considerable public funding the organisation receives each year.
And guess what, after the mass professional cleansing, the field will be fresh for a new crop of individuals willing to push just a little closer to or beyond that line.
__________________
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
10-20-12, 08:53 PM
#8
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How on earth was this "debacle created by Armstrong"? Because he didn't admit to usage sooner? He still hasn't? Doping existed before he ever came along. And, has continued in his absence?
And guess what, after the mass professional cleansing, the field will be fresh for a new crop of individuals willing to push just a little closer to or beyond that line.
And guess what, after the mass professional cleansing, the field will be fresh for a new crop of individuals willing to push just a little closer to or beyond that line.
The impact of the highly crafted, long-term deceptions employed by Armstrong, Ferrari and their cronies virtually gave other teams a licence to dope.
The result is dead cyclists, people whose careers both as riders and administrators have been ruined, and a persisting concept that originates and is perpetuated that winning is all that matters, at all cost.
It saddens me to think that not even the heroics of one of my own countrymen, Cadel Evans, two years ago, are now under a shadow... because of what you say in your last paragraph. And even Wiggins' victories this year are being regarded with suspicion... because of what you say in your last paragraph.
And it call comes back to Armstrong.
10-20-12, 09:55 PM
#9
Senior Member
Anyway, I have a strong feeling that Armstrong is going to end up in jail. The principle factor is not that he doped, but that he lied about it and gained a financial advantage out of what was then fraudulent activity.
As I implied, it's now sad that everyone involved in any form of high-level performance cycling will be suspected of doping. Any young rider who does put in the hard work to improve himself or herself is now a target of the doping tar-brush, whether he or she deserves it or not.
It is at a point where all faith in competitive road cycling from the public perspective will disappear.
Do you find this a satisfactory outcome from this episode that has Armstrong as its central figure?
As I implied, it's now sad that everyone involved in any form of high-level performance cycling will be suspected of doping. Any young rider who does put in the hard work to improve himself or herself is now a target of the doping tar-brush, whether he or she deserves it or not.
It is at a point where all faith in competitive road cycling from the public perspective will disappear.
Do you find this a satisfactory outcome from this episode that has Armstrong as its central figure?
Last edited by Juha; 10-21-12 at 02:33 AM.
10-20-12, 10:47 PM
#10
Senior Member
Rowan, you must think an awful lot of Lance to suggest that he is singularly responsible for so much.
As far as I can tell, cyclings dubious record began long before Armstrong and has continued since. And yes, look at Cadel affiliations, look at the depth of strength across Sky and the substantial improvement in form some of their riders made over the last 12 months.
Armstrong, his DS, DX or anyone else didn't give any other "license" to dope. The game predates them. They simply outclassed all the other amateurs in the way they administered it. In a really warped way it almost makes the guy more admirable. Instead of breaking the rules in a half assed sort of want to, sort of don't, kind of way, he basically took the all in approach. "If we're going to do this, we're going to do it right," so to speak.
And let's face it. His success was good for way more than just himself. Do you honestly think that ASO and the UCI weren't both very pleased to see an massive increase of interest from the very valuable North American market?
Hodge shouldn't have done it. Neither should have Whitey. Nor Lance. Or, Merckx. Or, name them all. But, you know what. It's as much a "professional enterprise" as it is about sport. And, they "the professionals" make judgement calls about the opportunity cost of their actions on a daily basis. They stretch the rules and break the rules based on the percieved reward vs the possible judgement.
We (the fans) applaud the players of our team sports for "taking the good foul". Aren't we truly to blame? Think about it. We the fans are responsible for this. If we quit watching the coverage, if their wasn't moeny it, then it could be about sport for the pure sake of athleticism. But, we can't help ourselves. We watch, we applaud, we provide a market for advertisers, and with that we dirty sport with money.
There's your route cause. Not Lance, or Johan, or Ferrari.
As far as I can tell, cyclings dubious record began long before Armstrong and has continued since. And yes, look at Cadel affiliations, look at the depth of strength across Sky and the substantial improvement in form some of their riders made over the last 12 months.
Armstrong, his DS, DX or anyone else didn't give any other "license" to dope. The game predates them. They simply outclassed all the other amateurs in the way they administered it. In a really warped way it almost makes the guy more admirable. Instead of breaking the rules in a half assed sort of want to, sort of don't, kind of way, he basically took the all in approach. "If we're going to do this, we're going to do it right," so to speak.
And let's face it. His success was good for way more than just himself. Do you honestly think that ASO and the UCI weren't both very pleased to see an massive increase of interest from the very valuable North American market?
Hodge shouldn't have done it. Neither should have Whitey. Nor Lance. Or, Merckx. Or, name them all. But, you know what. It's as much a "professional enterprise" as it is about sport. And, they "the professionals" make judgement calls about the opportunity cost of their actions on a daily basis. They stretch the rules and break the rules based on the percieved reward vs the possible judgement.
We (the fans) applaud the players of our team sports for "taking the good foul". Aren't we truly to blame? Think about it. We the fans are responsible for this. If we quit watching the coverage, if their wasn't moeny it, then it could be about sport for the pure sake of athleticism. But, we can't help ourselves. We watch, we applaud, we provide a market for advertisers, and with that we dirty sport with money.
There's your route cause. Not Lance, or Johan, or Ferrari.
__________________
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
10-21-12, 10:23 AM
#12
Senior Member
Rowan, you must think an awful lot of Lance to suggest that he is singularly responsible for so much.
As far as I can tell, cyclings dubious record began long before Armstrong and has continued since. And yes, look at Cadel affiliations, look at the depth of strength across Sky and the substantial improvement in form some of their riders made over the last 12 months.
Armstrong, his DS, DX or anyone else didn't give any other "license" to dope. The game predates them. They simply outclassed all the other amateurs in the way they administered it. In a really warped way it almost makes the guy more admirable. Instead of breaking the rules in a half assed sort of want to, sort of don't, kind of way, he basically took the all in approach. "If we're going to do this, we're going to do it right," so to speak.
And let's face it. His success was good for way more than just himself. Do you honestly think that ASO and the UCI weren't both very pleased to see an massive increase of interest from the very valuable North American market?
Hodge shouldn't have done it. Neither should have Whitey. Nor Lance. Or, Merckx. Or, name them all. But, you know what. It's as much a "professional enterprise" as it is about sport. And, they "the professionals" make judgement calls about the opportunity cost of their actions on a daily basis. They stretch the rules and break the rules based on the percieved reward vs the possible judgement.
We (the fans) applaud the players of our team sports for "taking the good foul". Aren't we truly to blame? Think about it. We the fans are responsible for this. If we quit watching the coverage, if their wasn't moeny it, then it could be about sport for the pure sake of athleticism. But, we can't help ourselves. We watch, we applaud, we provide a market for advertisers, and with that we dirty sport with money.
There's your route cause. Not Lance, or Johan, or Ferrari.
As far as I can tell, cyclings dubious record began long before Armstrong and has continued since. And yes, look at Cadel affiliations, look at the depth of strength across Sky and the substantial improvement in form some of their riders made over the last 12 months.
Armstrong, his DS, DX or anyone else didn't give any other "license" to dope. The game predates them. They simply outclassed all the other amateurs in the way they administered it. In a really warped way it almost makes the guy more admirable. Instead of breaking the rules in a half assed sort of want to, sort of don't, kind of way, he basically took the all in approach. "If we're going to do this, we're going to do it right," so to speak.
And let's face it. His success was good for way more than just himself. Do you honestly think that ASO and the UCI weren't both very pleased to see an massive increase of interest from the very valuable North American market?
Hodge shouldn't have done it. Neither should have Whitey. Nor Lance. Or, Merckx. Or, name them all. But, you know what. It's as much a "professional enterprise" as it is about sport. And, they "the professionals" make judgement calls about the opportunity cost of their actions on a daily basis. They stretch the rules and break the rules based on the percieved reward vs the possible judgement.
We (the fans) applaud the players of our team sports for "taking the good foul". Aren't we truly to blame? Think about it. We the fans are responsible for this. If we quit watching the coverage, if their wasn't moeny it, then it could be about sport for the pure sake of athleticism. But, we can't help ourselves. We watch, we applaud, we provide a market for advertisers, and with that we dirty sport with money.
There's your route cause. Not Lance, or Johan, or Ferrari.
But the fundamental issue that will land Armstrong in jail is that he lied so consistently and so vehemently about it, based on the evidence presented by USADA. He conned himself, he conned his sponsors, and he conned his fans. Worst of all, he conned cancer sufferers and their families.
The fact he took PEDs is now becoming almost irrelevant, (as you point out, because his fans are making it that way) but the deception is what lingers.
The most significant issue that I see is that this continued attitude of acceptance to doping will trickle down through the ranks to even juniors. One of the things that tripped up Matt White apparently is that he took a young rider "to a doctor".
Putting the deception aside, the seeming acceptance by many of Armstrong's actions and his successful cover-up now means some parents will see little to stop them from cheating with their kids taking PEDs in cycling competition. Hell, Lance did it, and got caught. We can do it because (a) people have accepted Lance did it and he got wealthy off it and (b) we won't be tested because they don't test kids for PEDs and (c) my kid's got talent and could one day make it to the TdF.
I'll add that the most disappointing result for me out of all the recent Olympic Games was Vinokourov winning the road race gold medal. There you have it -- a confirmed doper winning gold. Yeah, right...
10-21-12, 11:21 AM
#13
SLJ 6/8/65-5/2/07
Armstrong isn't going to jail over this. The US justice system took a long look and didn't find enough evidence of broken US laws to bring charges. Cheating in sports, especially in sports taking place in another nation, is not a violation of US law. As a US citizen that's all that really matters for LA. Having said that, the fact that the evidence gathered by the US became available to the USADA and is what has blown up the entire Armstrong house of cards means that LA did not fully escape the Feds by any means.
Armstrong's doping may have been sophisticated and cutting edge but you cannot blame doping in general or what is happening in Australia in particular on LA. Those individuals made their choices independent of Armstrong.
LA did what he did but to blame him, even indirectly, for all of the problems in cycling is a gross exaggeration and provides cover to many others who made their own choices and need to live with them.
Armstrong's doping may have been sophisticated and cutting edge but you cannot blame doping in general or what is happening in Australia in particular on LA. Those individuals made their choices independent of Armstrong.
LA did what he did but to blame him, even indirectly, for all of the problems in cycling is a gross exaggeration and provides cover to many others who made their own choices and need to live with them.
__________________
“Life is not one damned thing after another. Life is one damned thing over and over.”
Edna St. Vincent Millay
“Life is not one damned thing after another. Life is one damned thing over and over.”
Edna St. Vincent Millay
10-21-12, 11:44 AM
#14
out walking the earth
Armstrong isn't going to jail over this. The US justice system took a long look and didn't find enough evidence of broken US laws to bring charges. Cheating in sports, especially in sports taking place in another nation, is not a violation of US law. As a US citizen that's all that really matters for LA. Having said that, the fact that the evidence gathered by the US became available to the USADA and is what has blown up the entire Armstrong house of cards means that LA did not fully escape the Feds by any means.
Armstrong's doping may have been sophisticated and cutting edge but you cannot blame doping in general or what is happening in Australia in particular on LA. Those individuals made their choices independent of Armstrong.
LA did what he did but to blame him, even indirectly, for all of the problems in cycling is a gross exaggeration and provides cover to many others who made their own choices and need to live with them.
Armstrong's doping may have been sophisticated and cutting edge but you cannot blame doping in general or what is happening in Australia in particular on LA. Those individuals made their choices independent of Armstrong.
LA did what he did but to blame him, even indirectly, for all of the problems in cycling is a gross exaggeration and provides cover to many others who made their own choices and need to live with them.
10-21-12, 12:33 PM
#15
Senior Member
But, yes. That may actually be his undoing. If they can proove something beyond undeclared cash earnings in europe.
But, this thread isn't about LA.
It's about Hodge, Whitey, and all the people who are going to go down as a consequence of Tygart's after the fact case against LA.
The Dutch riders are pretty bummed at the moment.
They're going for prooving that the entire establishment is broken. Which it may well be. But, which is going to cost cycling dearly, in so many ways.
Sometimes it's best to let dead dogs lay (lie).
There are so many ways that Tygart and USADA could have worked toward clean sport, cycling or not, that didn't involve this sort of loss to so many.
Potentially the largest shame to this entire period will be that "seemingly" innocent riders are now loosing their jobs. Good going USADA. Good going Travis. You prooved what we already knew. Now, what do you propose to do that will "prevent" such a set of circumstances from reoccuring?
__________________
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
10-21-12, 12:45 PM
#16
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FIFY
But, yes. That may actually be his undoing. If they can proove something beyond undeclared cash earnings in europe.
But, this thread isn't about LA.
It's about Hodge, Whitey, and all the people who are going to go down as a consequence of Tygart's after the fact case against LA.
The Dutch riders are pretty bummed at the moment.
They're going for prooving that the entire establishment is broken. Which it may well be. But, which is going to cost cycling dearly, in so many ways.
Sometimes it's best to let dead dogs lay (lie).
There are so many ways that Tygart and USADA could have worked toward clean sport, cycling or not, that didn't involve this sort of loss to so many.
Potentially the largest shame to this entire period will be that "seemingly" innocent riders are now loosing their jobs. Good going USADA. Good going Travis. You prooved what we already knew. Now, what do you propose to do that will "prevent" such a set of circumstances from reoccuring?
But, yes. That may actually be his undoing. If they can proove something beyond undeclared cash earnings in europe.
But, this thread isn't about LA.
It's about Hodge, Whitey, and all the people who are going to go down as a consequence of Tygart's after the fact case against LA.
The Dutch riders are pretty bummed at the moment.
They're going for prooving that the entire establishment is broken. Which it may well be. But, which is going to cost cycling dearly, in so many ways.
Sometimes it's best to let dead dogs lay (lie).
There are so many ways that Tygart and USADA could have worked toward clean sport, cycling or not, that didn't involve this sort of loss to so many.
Potentially the largest shame to this entire period will be that "seemingly" innocent riders are now loosing their jobs. Good going USADA. Good going Travis. You prooved what we already knew. Now, what do you propose to do that will "prevent" such a set of circumstances from reoccuring?
10-21-12, 12:48 PM
#17
Senior Member
Armstrong isn't going to jail over this. The US justice system took a long look and didn't find enough evidence of broken US laws to bring charges. Cheating in sports, especially in sports taking place in another nation, is not a violation of US law. As a US citizen that's all that really matters for LA. Having said that, the fact that the evidence gathered by the US became available to the USADA and is what has blown up the entire Armstrong house of cards means that LA did not fully escape the Feds by any means.
Armstrong's doping may have been sophisticated and cutting edge but you cannot blame doping in general or what is happening in Australia in particular on LA. Those individuals made their choices independent of Armstrong.
LA did what he did but to blame him, even indirectly, for all of the problems in cycling is a gross exaggeration and provides cover to many others who made their own choices and need to live with them.
Armstrong's doping may have been sophisticated and cutting edge but you cannot blame doping in general or what is happening in Australia in particular on LA. Those individuals made their choices independent of Armstrong.
LA did what he did but to blame him, even indirectly, for all of the problems in cycling is a gross exaggeration and provides cover to many others who made their own choices and need to live with them.
There are many who are living with the choices they made, and the guilt is overwhelming them, and they are now prepared to admit to it, at great personal cost. Maybe Armstrong's mindset is to iron-clad that he won't ever admit to anything.
Also, it was interesting the read of Kristin's comments, that she has been bound by legal confidentiality agreements to remain silent on all this... plus her loyalty to the three kids. She must be going through hell at the moment.
bigfred probably had it right when saying let sleeping dogs lie.
But Armstrong was so arrogant about everything, that USADA couldn't let it go when there was evidence of his doping and his fundamental part in developing the masks and evasion of detection.
I still maintain Armstrong is at risk of prosecution and jail -- I don't think he was through the process enough in the legal system to take advantage of double-jeopardy rules.
10-21-12, 01:19 PM
#18
Senior Member
Armstrong isn't going to jail over this. The US justice system took a long look and didn't find enough evidence of broken US laws to bring charges. Cheating in sports, especially in sports taking place in another nation, is not a violation of US law. As a US citizen that's all that really matters for LA. Having said that, the fact that the evidence gathered by the US became available to the USADA and is what has blown up the entire Armstrong house of cards means that LA did not fully escape the Feds by any means.
Armstrong's doping may have been sophisticated and cutting edge but you cannot blame doping in general or what is happening in Australia in particular on LA. Those individuals made their choices independent of Armstrong.
LA did what he did but to blame him, even indirectly, for all of the problems in cycling is a gross exaggeration and provides cover to many others who made their own choices and need to live with them.
Armstrong's doping may have been sophisticated and cutting edge but you cannot blame doping in general or what is happening in Australia in particular on LA. Those individuals made their choices independent of Armstrong.
LA did what he did but to blame him, even indirectly, for all of the problems in cycling is a gross exaggeration and provides cover to many others who made their own choices and need to live with them.
10-21-12, 01:34 PM
#19
Senior Member
He could have said, "no thank you." He could have left. Plain and simple. He was in control of his own actions.
I know, because, I left the best job I ever had or will have over business ethics and legal concerns. I wasn't the first. I won't have been the last. Neither would any of these riders. They can choose to compete on the terms they hold themselves to, or, they can choose to do "whatever it takes". Once you choose the later, you might as well go all in. You've already compromised your ethics. What's "only compromising your ethics a little bit"? Is that like being "partially pregnant."?
I know, because, I left the best job I ever had or will have over business ethics and legal concerns. I wasn't the first. I won't have been the last. Neither would any of these riders. They can choose to compete on the terms they hold themselves to, or, they can choose to do "whatever it takes". Once you choose the later, you might as well go all in. You've already compromised your ethics. What's "only compromising your ethics a little bit"? Is that like being "partially pregnant."?
__________________
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
10-21-12, 01:38 PM
#20
Senior Member
Sorry, but if there is one single sworn statement that Armstrong has made to any court, he is in strife, if he cannot prove the mountain evidence against him is false. It's this that will get him, not necessarily the doping.
There are many who are living with the choices they made, and the guilt is overwhelming them, and they are now prepared to admit to it, at great personal cost. Maybe Armstrong's mindset is to iron-clad that he won't ever admit to anything.
Also, it was interesting the read of Kristin's comments, that she has been bound by legal confidentiality agreements to remain silent on all this... plus her loyalty to the three kids. She must be going through hell at the moment.
bigfred probably had it right when saying let sleeping dogs lie.
But Armstrong was so arrogant about everything, that USADA couldn't let it go when there was evidence of his doping and his fundamental part in developing the masks and evasion of detection.
I still maintain Armstrong is at risk of prosecution and jail -- I don't think he was through the process enough in the legal system to take advantage of double-jeopardy rules.
There are many who are living with the choices they made, and the guilt is overwhelming them, and they are now prepared to admit to it, at great personal cost. Maybe Armstrong's mindset is to iron-clad that he won't ever admit to anything.
Also, it was interesting the read of Kristin's comments, that she has been bound by legal confidentiality agreements to remain silent on all this... plus her loyalty to the three kids. She must be going through hell at the moment.
bigfred probably had it right when saying let sleeping dogs lie.
But Armstrong was so arrogant about everything, that USADA couldn't let it go when there was evidence of his doping and his fundamental part in developing the masks and evasion of detection.
I still maintain Armstrong is at risk of prosecution and jail -- I don't think he was through the process enough in the legal system to take advantage of double-jeopardy rules.
__________________
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
10-21-12, 01:43 PM
#21
Senior Member
He could have said, "no thank you." He could have left. Plain and simple. He was in control of his own actions.
I know, because, I left the best job I ever had or will have over business ethics and legal concerns. I wasn't the first. I won't have been the last. Neither would any of these riders. They can choose to compete on the terms they hold themselves to, or, they can choose to do "whatever it takes". Once you choose the later, you might as well go all in. You've already compromised your ethics. What's "only compromising your ethics a little bit"? Is that like being "partially pregnant."?
I know, because, I left the best job I ever had or will have over business ethics and legal concerns. I wasn't the first. I won't have been the last. Neither would any of these riders. They can choose to compete on the terms they hold themselves to, or, they can choose to do "whatever it takes". Once you choose the later, you might as well go all in. You've already compromised your ethics. What's "only compromising your ethics a little bit"? Is that like being "partially pregnant."?
I am just wanting to put some context into your comments here, because age, impressionability and ambition all have a role in this, especially when there is a personality at the top who is very intimidating. Young people aren't necessarily on control of their own actions... that's why we have drug addicts and alcoholics and kids killing themselves in car crashes.
And perhaps you could give White a benefit of the doubt, by not sticking around with USPS, either by not performing or through his own choice.
10-21-12, 02:09 PM
#22
SLJ 6/8/65-5/2/07
Perjury is awful hard to prove. I would have sworn I was a witness to it when I watched the American baseball player Roger Clemens tell the US Congress he never doped on live TV. His best friend on the team doped, his wife doped (for a swimsuit photo shoot) but he did not. Yeah right. But a jury said not guilty and that's all that legally matters. As it stands now I know of no criminal proceedings in the offing against LA but I have no special access to the federal justice system so who knows? After losing the Clemens case and hearing "not guilty" on the most serious charges against Barry Bonds I doubt the government is going to go after LA.
I could be wrong though.
I could be wrong though.
__________________
“Life is not one damned thing after another. Life is one damned thing over and over.”
Edna St. Vincent Millay
“Life is not one damned thing after another. Life is one damned thing over and over.”
Edna St. Vincent Millay
10-21-12, 06:20 PM
#23
Senior Member
Looks like Phil Liggett has raised the white flag on supporting Armstrong:
https://www.news.com.au/sport/more-sp...-1226500195180
https://www.news.com.au/sport/more-sp...-1226500195180
10-22-12, 12:05 AM
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Looks like Phil Liggett has raised the white flag on supporting Armstrong:
https://www.news.com.au/sport/more-sp...-1226500195180
https://www.news.com.au/sport/more-sp...-1226500195180
10-22-12, 11:25 AM
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Looks like Phil Liggett has raised the white flag on supporting Armstrong:
https://www.news.com.au/sport/more-sp...-1226500195180
https://www.news.com.au/sport/more-sp...-1226500195180
