How Many Calories/Carbs Do I Really Need?
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I've been following some of the nutrition & hydration threads and have found them informative. However, I don't see much discussion about hydration & nutrition needs for rides of varying intensities. For example, do I really need 60-90g carbs/hr. if I'm spending most of my time in Zone 2 (heart rate)? IMO, I don't believe I do; but I'm not a nutrition expert and I always try to tie my training decisions to some credible research. Along those lines I found a couple of sources with some very interesting information.
#1 - The first source is here: https://www.evoq.bike/blog/cycling-nutrition
#1 - The first source is here: https://www.evoq.bike/blog/cycling-nutrition
I found the shopping list pretty uninspired (i.e. boring). I think it should include a lot more legumes, eggplants, squash, beets, turnips, artichokes, and cauliflower, shallots, leeks, asparagus. You can’t get all your vegetables from chip dips.
As for carbo loading, I think this is an idea that such needs to die. If you follow a good eating plan on the bike it doesn’t help your performance much. It’s a 1960’s idea that has lasted too long. I haven’t carbo loaded since the 20th century. You’ll feel better starting a big ride ‘empty’ without eating a bunch the night before.
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For me this blog is all over the place. Does the author not know that lentils are legumes? Why list lentils and then legumes? Also not sure that I would list Tofu as a fat, although I guess there is some fats in it.
I found the shopping list pretty uninspired (i.e. boring). I think it should include a lot more legumes, eggplants, squash, beets, turnips, artichokes, and cauliflower, shallots, leeks, asparagus. You can’t get all your vegetables from chip dips.
As for carbo loading, I think this is an idea that such needs to die. If you follow a good eating plan on the bike it doesn’t help your performance much. It’s a 1960’s idea that has lasted too long. I haven’t carbo loaded since the 20th century. You’ll feel better starting a big ride ‘empty’ without eating a bunch the night before.
I found the shopping list pretty uninspired (i.e. boring). I think it should include a lot more legumes, eggplants, squash, beets, turnips, artichokes, and cauliflower, shallots, leeks, asparagus. You can’t get all your vegetables from chip dips.
As for carbo loading, I think this is an idea that such needs to die. If you follow a good eating plan on the bike it doesn’t help your performance much. It’s a 1960’s idea that has lasted too long. I haven’t carbo loaded since the 20th century. You’ll feel better starting a big ride ‘empty’ without eating a bunch the night before.
It's not the night before. But wow. I'm 67 kilos, so up to 700g carbs a day? 2800 Calories/day just in carbs and no exercise? How would one do that? My usual big ride breakfast is 400 Calories of my 7/1 malto/whey mix 3 hours before the ride.
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Calories required depends on conditioning and other factors as well. I rode the hardest and 2nd longest race on a PB and honey sandwich, a banana and 2 waterbottles of ERG (now called Vitalyte). But I also trained specifically for that race and did a full carbo-loading regime. (The race was 105 miles, ~5000' vertical and the (very small remaining) peloton finished under 3:58.) The 2 mile hill at mile 90 was the hardest thing I have ever done. Any food in my stomach would have come up.
Edit: re: carbo-loading and the previous post - yes, NOT the night before. I started 6 days earlier with a long hard ride. High protein, little carbs for 2 1/2 miserable days (with the usual training). Full complex carbos for a day and a half. 24 hours of rest (except for an easy spin or two), fruits, juice and water up to race time. I felt empty, clean and with fully stocked muscles at the start. Like a dialed-in racing machine.
Edit: re: carbo-loading and the previous post - yes, NOT the night before. I started 6 days earlier with a long hard ride. High protein, little carbs for 2 1/2 miserable days (with the usual training). Full complex carbos for a day and a half. 24 hours of rest (except for an easy spin or two), fruits, juice and water up to race time. I felt empty, clean and with fully stocked muscles at the start. Like a dialed-in racing machine.
Last edited by 79pmooney; 01-21-21 at 05:40 PM.
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It seemed like he wanted to plug the blog and slowtwitch/a Pearl Izumi employee?
That's all I got out of the post. It's a bit of an odd thread. The thread title is how many carbs he needs, but there's zero background information from him or his situation except him questioning whether he needs a substantial amount of carbs on easy rides?
Maybe he doesn't really know, either.
Frankly, if you're not bonking, you probably don't need any more calories. And if you are, you do.
If you're getting fatter, you don't. If you're losing a lot of weight (and don't want to), you do.
It's a pretty elementary topic.
That's all I got out of the post. It's a bit of an odd thread. The thread title is how many carbs he needs, but there's zero background information from him or his situation except him questioning whether he needs a substantial amount of carbs on easy rides?
Maybe he doesn't really know, either.
Frankly, if you're not bonking, you probably don't need any more calories. And if you are, you do.
If you're getting fatter, you don't. If you're losing a lot of weight (and don't want to), you do.
It's a pretty elementary topic.
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It's responses like this ^ that make me hate forums. rubiksoval is off on some weird tangent complaining about his belief that I'm trying to plug somebody's business. WTF???!!! Do you actually have anything to say about the CONTENT in that link? Obviously not.
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Telling someone they need 60g carbs/hr. (for example) as a generic "one size fits all" recommendation is ridiculous; and that's mostly what I see in the other discussions, generic recommendations without any/much context for other folks who may not have similar nutritional needs based on their specific riding style, goals, etc. So if your riding style and goals are different from mine your "fueling requirements" are probably different as well.
From my persepctive I'd much rather learn to fish than have someone give me a fish (especially if it's not the right fish for my needs). The info in the links taught me something so I could figure things out on my own. If you're someone who's trying to figure things out and are willing to take a few minutes to investigate the links I think you'll find it very helpful. I did. It's just helpful info to help you help yourself... nothing more, nothing less.
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It's responses like this ^ that make me hate forums. rubiksoval is off on some weird tangent complaining about his belief that I'm trying to plug somebody's business. WTF???!!! Do you actually have anything to say about the CONTENT in that link? Obviously not.
Maybe be clearer in your discussion attempts? Or maybe explain why you think blogs count as research, and if so, why you chose this blog in particular? Or that particular person on slowtwitch?
That's what makes no sense. Sources matter as much as content. That's how you know the content is credible (if it's even applicable to a particular situation in the first place).
I've already posted about the content of the blog. It's one person's thoughts on something he read. It's not applicable to me, and it's superfluous to most anyone who's ever practiced eating before in their lives.
Again, if you're bonking, eat more. If you're not, continue what you're doing.
What's your particular issue, again?
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This ^ is totally fair. Admittedly, I made the topic pretty broad. However, the topic was/is "How Many Calories/Carbs Do I Really Need"? The links posted (IMO) answer that question very well. In combination they provide the tools/info to figure out how many calories/carbs you need for a ride of a certain length and intensity. There is no single magical answer for this question.
Telling someone they need 60g carbs/hr. (for example) as a generic "one size fits all" recommendation is ridiculous; and that's mostly what I see in the other discussions, generic recommendations without any/much context for other folks who may not have similar nutritional needs based on their specific riding style, goals, etc. So if your riding style and goals are different from mine your "fueling requirements" are probably different as well.
From my persepctive I'd much rather learn to fish than have someone give me a fish (especially if it's not the right fish for my needs). The info in the links taught me something so I could figure things out on my own. If you're someone who's trying to figure things out and are willing to take a few minutes to investigate the links I think you'll find it very helpful. I did. It's just helpful info to help you help yourself... nothing more, nothing less.
Telling someone they need 60g carbs/hr. (for example) as a generic "one size fits all" recommendation is ridiculous; and that's mostly what I see in the other discussions, generic recommendations without any/much context for other folks who may not have similar nutritional needs based on their specific riding style, goals, etc. So if your riding style and goals are different from mine your "fueling requirements" are probably different as well.
From my persepctive I'd much rather learn to fish than have someone give me a fish (especially if it's not the right fish for my needs). The info in the links taught me something so I could figure things out on my own. If you're someone who's trying to figure things out and are willing to take a few minutes to investigate the links I think you'll find it very helpful. I did. It's just helpful info to help you help yourself... nothing more, nothing less.
You make broad generalizations about other people making broad generalizations, and then try to combat said generalizations with blog links.
How many calories you need changes based on dozens of factors. Reading about it isn't going to solve any of your issues. Trying different things is. Help yourself by thinking about what you're doing and making systematic adjustments if change needs to be made. You know, self-learning?
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How many calories you need changes based on dozens of factors. Reading about it isn't going to solve any of your issues. Trying different things is. Help yourself by thinking about what you're doing and making systematic adjustments if change needs to be made. You know, self-learning?
By comparison, the "common sense guide" that you posted doesn't provide any "actionable intelligence".
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I've copied rubiksoval 's "common sense guidance" above. Can you tell me how that "advice" can tangibly assist someone who is trying to figure out what amount of calories/carbs they might need for a ride of a specific length and intensity? You can't because there is no real value to his overly-generic statements. I certainly don't disagree with what he said, it's just not helpful as a baseline of knowledge.
The advice presumes one is riding regularly and willing to do some basic experimentation. It doesn’t have to be complicated.
If you’re unwilling to experiment you could follow the recommendations in the blog you posted and ingest 60-90g of carbs/hr.
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I agree! However, self learning starts with some assumptions and a plan. The goal is to develop a baseline of working knowledge to more efficiently figure out what works best for our our specific situation (casual rider to racer to endurance rider). The info in the links that I posted was very helpful to me in my quest to better understand what I need and why.
By comparison, the "common sense guide" that you posted doesn't provide any "actionable intelligence".
By comparison, the "common sense guide" that you posted doesn't provide any "actionable intelligence".
Do you really need to wade through pages and pages of a guy's blog to "develop a baseline of working knowledge" about that?
Think about what you're saying here, because it's starting to paint you as someone who A) can't think for themselves and B) can't independently try something without a random guy on the internet telling them to.
This is probably one of the least difficult concepts to grasp when it comes to going out and piddling around at an easy pace for a couple of hours, but you're trying to turn it into a dissertation defense.
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I've copied rubiksoval 's "common sense guidance" above. Can you tell me how that "advice" can tangibly assist someone who is trying to figure out what amount of calories/carbs they might need for a ride of a specific length and intensity? You can't because there is no real value to his overly-generic statements. I certainly don't disagree with what he said, it's just not helpful as a baseline of knowledge.
You figure out new things based on your experiences. This, too, is called your life. If new experiences necessitate different actions, then you experiment to figure out said different actions.
You've ridden a bike before, so use that knowledge and experience that you gained from doing said rides and apply it to future rides.
If you're truly that confused, just pay Brendon 400 bucks a month or something and I'm sure he'll write you out a plan that dictates every piece of fish you need to eat. He'll have to constantly adapt that plan, because, you know, experimenting...
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If you don't eat on a two hour ride and bonk, then "actionable intelligence" would suggest that the next time you try a similar ride, you eat.
Do you really need to wade through pages and pages of a guy's blog to "develop a baseline of working knowledge" about that?
Think about what you're saying here, because it's starting to paint you as someone who A) can't think for themselves and B) can't independently try something without a random guy on the internet telling them to.
This is probably one of the least difficult concepts to grasp when it comes to going out and piddling around at an easy pace for a couple of hours, but you're trying to turn it into a dissertation defense.
Do you really need to wade through pages and pages of a guy's blog to "develop a baseline of working knowledge" about that?
Think about what you're saying here, because it's starting to paint you as someone who A) can't think for themselves and B) can't independently try something without a random guy on the internet telling them to.
This is probably one of the least difficult concepts to grasp when it comes to going out and piddling around at an easy pace for a couple of hours, but you're trying to turn it into a dissertation defense.
Thinking for yourself is not taking the generic advice of someone like yourself who likes to pontificate on the internet and act like a bully, it's about seeking out data and knowledge that can actually help further understanding and provide working knowledge.
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You have a baseline of knowledge. It's called your entire life.
You figure out new things based on your experiences. This, too, is called your life. If new experiences necessitate different actions, then you experiment to figure out said different actions.
You've ridden a bike before, so use that knowledge and experience that you gained from doing said rides and apply it to future rides.
If you're truly that confused, just pay Brendon 400 bucks a month or something and I'm sure he'll write you out a plan that dictates every piece of fish you need to eat. He'll have to constantly adapt that plan, because, you know, experimenting...
You figure out new things based on your experiences. This, too, is called your life. If new experiences necessitate different actions, then you experiment to figure out said different actions.
You've ridden a bike before, so use that knowledge and experience that you gained from doing said rides and apply it to future rides.
If you're truly that confused, just pay Brendon 400 bucks a month or something and I'm sure he'll write you out a plan that dictates every piece of fish you need to eat. He'll have to constantly adapt that plan, because, you know, experimenting...
If trial and error is your preferred method of learning that's fine. It is highly inefficient. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It doesn't generate consistent and reliable results. But if that's your comfort zone I wish you well.
Human kind has generated a ton of knowledge over the centuries. I prefer to leverage that knowledge, as I can read and comprehend and don't need to rely on a self-proclaimed "internet messiah" such as yourself telling me something that isn't even helpful.
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You're painting yourself as a "know-it-all" who thinks everyone should just ignore data and "feel their way" through the process. Can that be done? Yes. Is it efficient? No! For folks who want to know more about what's behind the generic 60-90g carbs/hr. recommendation, can they benefit from the info in those links? Absolutely!
Thinking for yourself is not taking the generic advice of someone like yourself who likes to pontificate on the internet and act like a bully, it's about seeking out data and knowledge that can actually help further understanding and provide working knowledge.
Thinking for yourself is not taking the generic advice of someone like yourself who likes to pontificate on the internet and act like a bully, it's about seeking out data and knowledge that can actually help further understanding and provide working knowledge.
So you can't think for yourself if someone else says it's better to think for yourself? Gotcha. You're a regular paradox of independent learning.
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I'm not confused. I just like to advance my knowledge and understanding so I can systematically work towards established goals. If I was just casually riding around the block at 10-12 mph for 10-20 miles at a time I wouldn't bee too concerned about what in my water bottle... other than water. But that's not what I'm doing.
If trial and error is your preferred method of learning that's fine. It is highly inefficient. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It doesn't generate consistent and reliable results. But if that's your comfort zone I wish you well.
Human kind has generated a ton of knowledge over the centuries. I prefer to leverage that knowledge, as I can read and comprehend and don't need to rely on a self-proclaimed "internet messiah" such as yourself telling me something that isn't even helpful.
If trial and error is your preferred method of learning that's fine. It is highly inefficient. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It doesn't generate consistent and reliable results. But if that's your comfort zone I wish you well.
Human kind has generated a ton of knowledge over the centuries. I prefer to leverage that knowledge, as I can read and comprehend and don't need to rely on a self-proclaimed "internet messiah" such as yourself telling me something that isn't even helpful.
Last edited by rubiksoval; 01-22-21 at 08:03 AM.
#44
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Say what you want about him, but rubik calls out the crap that various know-it-alls who have been training/riding for a only a hot minute come here and try to push on people. Frankly, if it weren't for folks like him, every dumb training/nutrition idea would get so much more traction around here. He knows his stuff and isn't afraid to call out the nonsense, I just don't have the patience to do that, but I try to be another voice when possible
Folks above have provided good advice. Yes there are general recommendations of 60-90g/carb per hour. Do I agree with that universally? No, especially since newer/casual cyclists attach themselves to that dogma when many burn <400 calories in an hour. I've said myself above that I've done 100 mile rides on 1100 calories, which I'm not sure on the grams/hr, but it was on the lower end. Depending on fitness, someone may burn more or fewer carbs at Z2. So the advice to kind of feel it out for yourself is sound, absent any type of lab testing where you can get some specific data on your own carb utilization at various intensities. Everyone is different, which is why feeling your way through is ultimately what needs to be done.
Folks above have provided good advice. Yes there are general recommendations of 60-90g/carb per hour. Do I agree with that universally? No, especially since newer/casual cyclists attach themselves to that dogma when many burn <400 calories in an hour. I've said myself above that I've done 100 mile rides on 1100 calories, which I'm not sure on the grams/hr, but it was on the lower end. Depending on fitness, someone may burn more or fewer carbs at Z2. So the advice to kind of feel it out for yourself is sound, absent any type of lab testing where you can get some specific data on your own carb utilization at various intensities. Everyone is different, which is why feeling your way through is ultimately what needs to be done.
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I'm happy to engage in a conversation/debate about the topic at hand, but it's impossible to have a real conversation with someone like yourself who just makes up their own facts and twists information.
You've obviously got it all figured out through trial and error and have no interest in discussing the content of either of those links. From what I can tell you're just here to throw stones. How is that of any assistance?
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If your blog post was linked to some actual research, yes. You seem to consistently ignore that little piece of info when commenting on the link I provided.
I'm happy to engage in a conversation/debate about the topic at hand, but it's impossible to have a real conversation with someone like yourself who just makes up their own facts and twists information.
You've obviously got it all figured out through trial and error and have no interest in discussing the content of either of those links. From what I can tell you're just here to throw stones. How is that of any assistance?
I'm happy to engage in a conversation/debate about the topic at hand, but it's impossible to have a real conversation with someone like yourself who just makes up their own facts and twists information.
You've obviously got it all figured out through trial and error and have no interest in discussing the content of either of those links. From what I can tell you're just here to throw stones. How is that of any assistance?
You haven't engaged in any conversation at all. That's what multiple people have told you. All you've done is post blog links and voraciously defended them as being pertinent and useful under some guise of providing "learning". You still haven't said what exactly your issue is, why you think this learning is applicable in any way, or why you think it so paramount that you have a "plan" that must override your own experiences.
How is that of any assistance?
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Yes there are general recommendations of 60-90g/carb per hour. Do I agree with that universally? No, especially since newer/casual cyclists attach themselves to that dogma when many burn <400 calories in an hour. I've said myself above that I've done 100 mile rides on 1100 calories, which I'm not sure on the grams/hr, but it was on the lower end. Depending on fitness, someone may burn more or fewer carbs at Z2.
So the advice to kind of feel it out for yourself is sound, absent any type of lab testing where you can get some specific data on your own carb utilization at various intensities. Everyone is different, which is why feeling your way through is ultimately what needs to be done.
As one example of the results of "feeling your way through", we had a former president in the USA who operated in that manner and things didn't work out too well. 400,000+ dead and counting. Just sayin'.
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I've pointed that out at least a couple of times, so I can only assume you are intentionally ignoring it.
Here's a link to the research: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/5584523/
I know, too much reading and too many big words so I assume you will ignore this information as well.
Last edited by Cyclist0100; 01-22-21 at 09:09 AM.
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You are ignoring the fact that the blog post is based (at least in part) on this source: Bergstrom, J., Hermansen, L., Hultman, E., and Saltin, B. Diet, muscle glycogen and physical performance. Acta Physiol Scand. 71: 140-150, 1967.
I've pointed that out at least a couple of times, so I can only assume you are intentionally ignoring it.
Here's a link to the research: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/5584523/
I know, too much reading and too many big words so I assume you will ignore this information as well.
I've pointed that out at least a couple of times, so I can only assume you are intentionally ignoring it.
Here's a link to the research: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/5584523/
I know, too much reading and too many big words so I assume you will ignore this information as well.
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I've been following some of the nutrition & hydration threads and have found them informative. However, I don't see much discussion about hydration & nutrition needs for rides of varying intensities. For example, do I really need 60-90g carbs/hr. if I'm spending most of my time in Zone 2 (heart rate)? IMO, I don't believe I do; but I'm not a nutrition expert and I always try to tie my training decisions to some credible research. Along those lines I found a couple of sources with some very interesting information.
#1 - The first source is here: https://www.evoq.bike/blog/cycling-nutrition-guide
Source #2 is a forum post, but it is posted by a physiologist at Pearl Izumi. It goes into more detail about how to plan and calculate your need for fuel based on average power output.
#2 - The second source is here: https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/S..._fat_P6571862/
#1 - The first source is here: https://www.evoq.bike/blog/cycling-nutrition-guide
Source #2 is a forum post, but it is posted by a physiologist at Pearl Izumi. It goes into more detail about how to plan and calculate your need for fuel based on average power output.
#2 - The second source is here: https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/S..._fat_P6571862/
If you are in rubiksoval 's camp and think science is just fluff, something to be ignored because your own life experiences have taught you all you need to know, then this thread is not for you.