divide_by_0

I have been biking for many years... playing with some of the shorter duathlons and triatlons. I quite enjoy them, but MAN, my run is weak!

I have been working on the run for about 18 months, mostly after strength training on a treadmill. I run the treadmill at a 0.5% grade to help comensate for the lack of wind resistance (etc.) and find it great for setting a pace so I can push myself. I struggle to hold the same pace outside. I am pretty good at 7.8 to 8.1 mph on the treadmill for extended runs (10k), but outside I am consistently coming in about 7 to 7.2 MPH.

Tonight I went out with the sole intent of lengthening every stride (instead of moving my feet faster). In my brain, it seems more like running a taller gear on the bike, rather than spinning faster in the shorter gear. I came in about 7.2 MPH, so cant say if it helped, but I dont feel nearly as tired... also, I went out at the "last minute" right after eating a turkey burger and sweet potato fries... not an ideal cargo to carry for 3.2 miles.

Any runners have an opinion on lenghtening the stride (vs. "spinning") to gain speed?

StanSeven

OK, you aren't going to like my advice - don't try messing with your stride length. You may get injured. Work on getting faster doing speedwork like intervals. If you want to get a longer stride, it comes naturally with improvements.

Also run outside and avoid the treadmill.

divide_by_0

why wouldnt I like your advice?I have done intervals only once a few weeks back... I will give it more priority.I know on the treadmill, but I LOVE air conditioned (and heated) running!

Invictus35

So I'll be honest with you right now: THERES NO POSSIBLE WAY TO LENGTHEN YOUR STRIDE WITHOUT DRASTICALLY HURTING EVERY OTHER ASPECT OF RUNNING. It's physically impossible to change stride length without hurting yourself. This is coming from a guy who has spent years running. I competed in Xcountry races in high school and went to state. Work on your base, then work up to interval training. In fact I highly recommend this book https://www.amazon.com/Daniels-Runnin.../dp/0736054928 it's amazing and hits everything right on the head of it. Cadence is your best bet. All the elite runners have high turn over rates. Somewhere around 180 steps per minute or greater. Time yourself and count your stride rate. Its about 90 per leg. Set a goal and work up to it. It's hard to explain what you should do, but that book will do it for you. Also it's good because it has plans already set ranging from beginner to elite. The guy who wrote is a proven coach and champion. It's a quick read, and you can open to any chapter and start there.

Cheers

divide_by_0

Excellent... Thx gents!

Miyata110

Yep, pretty simply answer. Don't mess with your stride and get off the treadmill.An aside - I love talking with other "runners" who like to compare their time on a treadmill with my time on the roads. There is no comparison.

divide_by_0

It is surprising to see how wide the difference is... But I make it a rule not to argue with facts and I a MUCH slower on the road, whatever the reason...

Hammonjj

This is straight up wrong, especially if you believe what he says later about cadence. There was a study done years ago where a guy counted the cadence of runners at the olymnpics. With virtually no exceptions they all ran at 180 steps per minute. Now, if you are running a 5:00 min/mi and running 180 SPM and the other runners in another event are running 4:50 min/mi at 180 SPM, then how do you think they are doing this? Their stride length is different. So they idea that you can't or shouldn't change stride lengths doesn't make any sense at all.

That said, concentrate on having nice form and on faster intervals and the mechanics of running will take care of themselves (IMHO).

Invictus35

Their strides are different, but ask yourself why? Do you think maybe 1 of them is taller than the other, or has longer legs? I don't think you're accounting for this. Rarely can you make your stride longer by forcing yourself to train it. The fact is that your stride naturally changes as your cadence increases. But to say that you should train yourself to increase your stride is absolutely ridiculous. And no where did I contradict myself as you so seem to say.

If my legs are longer than your legs I cover more ground all else being the same. However if my stride is longer but your cadence is faster, we can cover the same amount of ground. Have you ever gone out and tried to increase your stride??? It's like you're a gazelle bounding. Maybe you can do like 1 inch more but that 1 inch isn't going to help as much as saying going from 100 to 150 SPM.

Cheers

billyymc

Funny that this thread is up now...I was about to search for this very information. For me the run is by far the weakest part of my tri (I'm slower than the OP!), and i've been wondering about stride length because I've always had a very short stride.

Going to check out that book that Invictus recommended, and start throwing some interval training into my running.

BTW - what's the problem with running on the treadmill? I commute to work by bike most days, and when I get there I jump on the treadmill for 20 to 30 minutes just to get a little run in for the day.

Miyata110

Nothing. Just don't run 7 min miles on a treadmill and expect similar results on the road.

divide_by_0

As a mechanical engineer, I have tried to find the discrepancy between the treadmill and the "real-world," but cant account for any significant difference. I can tell you, however, my results on the treadmill are VERY consistent and always about 10% faster than my real-world runs.

I have been moitoring my cadence; I am very consistent between about 155 and 170. I am reading the book (linked above)... It has several ways to approach speed increases, but notes that if I run the same speed every time, I will not improve... need to get out and push it and mix up my workouts (intervals).

fluffy runner

Trying to extend stride length tends to lead to over striding and heel striking, which can cause problems with your knees and hips. Faster turnover is definitely the way to get faster runs.

Necessity

Seriously? You can't figure it out? When on a treadmill you don't have to push off, you are just picking your feet up and moving them forward. You are only doing half the work of actual roadwork.

z90

You aren't pushing through the air.

"

KoolAidnPizza

I'm a distance runner, have a 25k coming up this Saturday so hopefully my advice is of use- when running anything over a track distance your stride rate should be about 110 per minuite. Longer strides come with experience and strengthening of certain muscles.

vesteroid

Oddly enough I find I can run faster out doors thanon my treadmill.

But after reding this I am wondering if somehow my treadmill Is saying its going slower than it is.

divide_by_0

The energy of the treadmill goes to move the reference... Your "world" is moving... You are not... I buy the wind resistance but at 6 to 10 mph, that has to be minor.

z90

It's close to 8% of the energy cost, according to the article I linked. Fits pretty closely with your 10% observed difference.

z90

By the way, I came across this "Treadmill pace conversion chart". Not sure how accurate it is or what studies it's based on.

"Because of lack of wind resistance while running on a treadmill, the effort of running on a treadmill at 0% incline is less than that of running on a level road at the same pace. Below is a chart that you can use to get approximate equivalent efforts between running on a treadmill at different paces and inclines and running outdoors on a level surface."
https://www.hillrunner.com/training/tmillchart.php

Triguy

To the OP. Neither stride mechanism will have an effect on your speed unless something is wrong with your stride. I definitely would not try lengthening my stride and I would only attempt increasing frequency if my stride frequency were really low.

Run more, run more often, run faster, run faster more often, run slow, run different types of speeds more often. Those six things will make you faster.

The biggest reason people don't run faster is that over 80% of their running is at the same speed. I find that either people run too slow, so they increase their endurance marginally. Alternatively, some people do all(or almost all) their running at a speed that wears them down over time but isn't creating big changes like workouts do.

divide_by_0

Z90... Good info.. Thx...

Triguy...agreed... That is what I was doing... Steady state, comfortable pace... Learning to push it faster a bit.

vesteroid

I started running about 5 months ago. I am 47 years old, still out of shape and 6'5" tall, not not your natural athlete type. I just finished my first half. Fell mid pack in my age group.

No where near your speed.

I have read a variety of books on running and more post on runners world online than I care to remember. The one overwhelming theme I have seen says first, regardless of speed work to get your cadence up to 90 strikes for one foot, then when that becomes second nature, lengthen your stride to go,faster.

Not saying I personally know a darn thing about running, but it has worked for me.

njdanny85

Just to chime in on this discussion, I'd have to agree that intervals are the best way to improve speed and running outside is far better than running on the treadmill. I am far better at running than cycling or swimming, so I can say from experience that speed work and intervals improves your leg turnover and gets your body used to running at a higher intensity. Messing with stride length is a good way to get yourself injured.

I have been running for about 3 years steadily and I improved by 5K time from 25+ minutes down to 19 minutes and did a half marathon last year in 97 minutes (and am aiming for closer 90 min when I do it again this year, last year was my 1st). I made the best improvements by doing intense interval training. The treadmill can be helpful for doing intervals but I personally run a lot better outside. I'm not the fastest runner, but I was happy with my improvements and I plan to continue doing hard intervals to try to get down to under 6 min mile paces.

So, run intervals and do speed work to get faster. That should increase your leg turnover which in my opinion is what should improve your speed/pace, not lengthening your stride.

hueyhoolihan

it's obvious to me that your 0.5% incline is not enough. increase it until your treadmill times match your outdoor times . it was just an approximation anyway, wasn't it?