George3

Or is it better to pour metal paint in the frame parts? Thanks for your advice.

Wouldn't it make more sense, if Brompton had done such a treatment for safety, in the frame pipes during production?

The inside of my 2006 steel Brompton is untreated steel and is slightly rusting, except for the first two spray painted inches from the pipe ends. The inside of the frame pipes is not oiled either.

Nightdiver

Hmm... that's really strange. Yes, scooters are plentiful in Taipei, but bikes are everywhere, being ridden by loads of people from all walks of life, many of whom rely on them for everyday utility needs. Of the bikes being ridden, there is a huge percentage of folding bikes, although most of them are dirt cheap POS, and almost all of them never get folded a single time in their lifespan.

linberl

https://www.amazon.com/J-P-Weigles-B.../dp/B0012GO58Y That's the stuff. Any dealer who sells steel bikes should sell this also and recommend it to the buyer. I know Bike Friday made sure I knew about this product and the reasons to use it. My son bought a steel Jamis bike and the local shop that sold it to him also recommended he treat his bike with this.

berlinonaut

You can buy a nickel-Brompton from Brompton. And you can combine it with Ti-forks and Ti-rear frame. Get it from any Brompton dealer. Not cheap, but should be bullet-proof in terms of rust.


For that matter: Bromptons are powder coated rather than painted. And the paint is (at least in my eyes) pretty robust. Especially the glossy one before 2009. They typically get banged around more heavily than ordinary bikes through folding and being constantly put into tiny edges, car boots and so on. Therefore sings of wear are normal to a degree. The matt powder coating since 2009 seems to be a bit less robust than the glossy one, but mainly still ok in terms of rust. It was invented due to environmental policies of the EU if I remember right.

Source: https://brompton.zendesk.com/hc/en-u...Paint-Finishes

There used to be a weak spot: Rear frames were rusting trough due to a hole at the bottom of the cross-stay near the hinge left over from production. This hole has disappeared in 2008 or 2009. That was a while ago. Since then I did not read about any newer rear frame that had rusted through. The main frames have always been pretty robust regarding rust. I've heard of less than a handful that had rusted through around the rear hinge or the seat-tube. Not much for more than 400.000 bikes made. And those were commuters, used throughout the year in all wether conditions including salt and with little love given to them.

It is not that Brompton could not enhance some things but rust doesn't seem to be more than a cosmetic issue for at least about the last 10 years. And what you are criticizing seems to be at least partly to result from a lack of knowledge.

bhkyte

You asked for examples of rusty Bromptons and I gave you them.
You are the person adding the post 2009 restriction.
It does not make the older rusty Brompton unrusty.
Goal post are a moving sir.
Nor did it make my seat post from 2015 unrusty.

berlinonaut

Well it doesn't make to much sense to complain and demand changes in 2017 for issues from 2006 and earlier (the bike from sevenlegueboots) if those changes have have already been made to production 10 years ago...

And in my eyes rust is one thing, rusting through is a different one. The first is cosmetics, the second one makes the bike unusuable. The first is common (and normal to a degree), the latter is a rare beast (and has always been). If you do under no circumstances want the tiniest bit of rust on your frame the only safe way is to go for a different material like aluminum or titanium (and therefore for a different bike) - or to buy one of the ti-nickel-Bromptons. The Brompton CEO is not Marty McFly, therefor he probably can't travel to the past to apply all the modern changes to older bikes.

The 2015 seat-post is a different thing. For one it should still be within warranty (5 years on the frame, 2 years on everything else, at least here in Germany). Second the seatpost is chromed steel. I've seen a lot of Bromptons over the years and own some myself. I never saw a rusty seat post. Therefor I'd assume it is either a failure in fabrication or the result from some mistreating which is hard to imagine. Claim your warranty or buy a new one - it is just 30€ or less, so not much of an issue.

George3

Not many people can or want to pay more than two thousand dollars for a folding bike.

That sounds great, but sorry, I don't know what to believe, and I am not reassured by this text. My life is at stake, if I ride my Brompton in the craze of city traffic in the dark, and in harsh weather conditions. I prefer to see no rust at all. This Brompton looks pretty rusty to me, despite it's iron phosphate coating:




https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bi...-big-deal.html

George3

I don't mean to nag. But I hope that Brompton will produce rust-free bikes, so I feel safe to buy a new one in the future. And if my respectful suggestions would help, Brompton might also benefit from that, I hope.

If my Brompton breaks or fails otherwise in heavy traffic, I may be crushed under a city bus, and die, or spend the rest of my sad years in a nursing home. City traffic in snow and storms is life threatening, even with a perfect bike. So my standards are pretty high in that respect. Would you board an airplane that showed surface rust? If we don't accept a rusty plane, why accept a rusty folding bike?

If there was a competing bike, that resembled a Brompton. But I have not found such a folder.

If chromed steel is such a succes, why not make Bromptons totally of it?

berlinonaut

Funnily enough these are often the very same people who can pay thousands of dollars for cars and iphones. You get what you pay for. But in this case, as the demand for a totally rust-free brompton is irrational, it is a matter of taste, nothing more.


Well - for the main-frame to rust through would take tens of years. The tubing is thick. Therefor even if there is surface rust inside the mainframe it does not affect your safety. Furthermore: The good thing about metal and rust is that you see, if you get a serious problem. You have to learn to differentiate between cosmetics and a serious problem which seems to be hard for you. Plus metal bends before it breaks. Therefore even if your frame would rost through AND you would miss to reconize probably not much would happen. The bike would start to behave a bit strange, therefore you would stop and that was that. No danger involved.
Instead you want a frame made of aluminium. Aluminum breaks out of the blue w/o prewarning. I would not call this better.

If you read the thread you would see that everybody agreed that this is no big deal and no problem. Learn to distinguish between surface rust and a serious problem. Plus, if you do not want rust do not buy a raw-laquer version.


Well, if you want a new airplane for less than 2000 dollars or even one for below 900 dollars I'd assume that rust is the least of your problems...


Buy one of the Dahon Curls that just enter the market. Aluminium and a Brompton clone. Maybe you will return, maybe not.

Because it is unnecessary, it is heavy, it is expensive and it offers absolutely no advantages. If done properly below chrome is nickel, below nickel is copper and below copper is the bare metal. You think the nickel version is already too expensive. Why and how would you pay for a chrome-version then? If it is not done properly chrome won't help and even make things worse because you can't easiely repair damaged spots within a chromed surface. You can with paint. Plus chroming is not the best treatment you can do in terms of environment friendlyness.

fietsbob

Some people take care of their bikes, some people don't, care.








....

jur

That rust is no problem. That's a thin coating of surface rust only. Rust occupies roughly 10x the volume of iron, so 1mm coating of rust is from a 0.1mm layer of steel. What you have there is way less than a mm so it is cosmetic only. If you pour some rust remover down there, shake it about, let it sit for a while, shake some more, then pour out the excess and let it dry, the rust will be converted to iron-phosphate. Over that, pour in paint or some of that tough wax that you can find at car part shops, that is used for spraying inside car body tubes.

George3

Thanks, but in my experience rust will continue to grow under paint. And the inside of the frame will often get wet from condensed water, caused by rapid temperature swings. So I think, I will need a special product that binds the rust in the frame. I wonder why Brompton has not applied that in the production stage. That would not be very time consuming for them. And it would strengthen their reputation as the elite brand in folders.

George3

I know folding bike owners who struggle daily to make ends meet.

Maybe it helps to use thicker aluminum. If aluminum was that dangerous, they wouldn't use it in airplane production and ladders, I guess.

Thanks. I will consider that.

George3

A few examples that show, what rust can do to a high-priced iron phosphate coated Brompton:

dahoneezz

Wow! Very bad pictures of rust.

This is an old comment from Leonard Rubin from here:

Spotlight on handlebars

I am not a materials expert. Another thing, aluminum bikes will have galvanic corrosion at the hinges. Don't think the hinge pins are aluminum. In the end, everything is a compromise.

George3

A few more rusty Brompton parts:

berlinonaut

Did I tell you: "if you are in fear of rust don't buy raw laquer"? Still only a cosmetic problem.


Doesn't look like rust but like overstressing.

This ist the "classical" break of the old frame hinge before 2004. Has exactly nothing to do with rust but with the construction of the old hinge.


These are rear frames that rusted through due to the hole in the cross-stay, I mentioned earlier in this thread. The hole is history since 2008 or 2009.


What do you think has to happen until your bike looks like one of these two? How many years of total neglection does it take to get a rusty seatpost like this? You probably can't even pull it out any more.

These are all from the same bike. Total lack of maintenance again. You can destroy pretty much anything if you want to.... Furthermore this one was a bike from the 90ies - according to the blog - "a bit neglected" (very british understatement). And as he wrote: Apart from the rearframe the bike was totally fine and up and running again after the rear frame was replaced (and the rear hub was cleaned out). Note that you can still buy a rear frame for a Brompton from the 90ies. Costs about 200€ (maybe a bit more in the meantime). Not too much for 20+ years of usage and not possible with most other manufacturers. Plus this is still an unusual failure - most Bromptons do not suffer from this - it has in most cases at least partly to do with very intensive usage in bad conditions in combination with a total absence of maintenance for years and years. Most brompton workshops will even never have seen anything like this.

In the end: Bromptons can and do rust. It is however not an issue and only cosmetic in most cases. There are more than 400.000 Bromptons out there. I've not heard of a single accident caused by frame rust. You seem to be on a paranoia-level where you've become totally irrational and can't judge any more. Best would probably be to sell you Brompton and get something else.

badmother

This is what I have suspected for some time. What about all those horrible sink holes in some streets around the world? What does the OP want Brompton to do about those? If you want I can post pictures of some wery scary sinkholes.. Maybe a huge folder that would not fit in the hole and therefor not disapear?

Diode100

I doubt the OP actually has a Brompton, I think he / she is a troll.

berlinonaut

Maybe it is Dr. Hon, trying to push sales on the Dahon Curl!

George3

I have no commercial ties to the folding bike industry. You can read my other messages in other topics. We could make another topic about rust in Dahon bikes. I am interested in the Curl, but it seems to be expensive, and I find it hard to find price information. Is it already on sale?

George3

Or you could buy a new folding bike for 150 - 500 dollars.

Instead of attacking the messenger, why don't you run a Google search on:
Brompton rust
Brompton rusty
Brompton corrosion
Brompton rouille (in French)
Brompton rost (in German), etc.

Then you will find many personal stories about Brompton users complaining about rust accompanied by pictures of their Brompton. Are they all irrational and paranoid? I am trying to be respectful and constructive. Brompton could learn from the car and aviation industry and from top metallurgists how to prevent rust more effectively.

------------
The metallurgist’s view
Dr Martin Strangwood — senior lecturer at the School of Metallurgy and Materials, University of Birmingham — on anti-corrosion protection:

“A lot of today’s high-grade steels are pre-galvanised to provide anti-corrosion protection, and their edges coated and protected after cutting. Bodies that are made from steels that have not been pre-galvanised will be hot-dipped to galvanise them thoroughly. A polymer coating might then be applied before painting. This trend towards more complete protection dates from the Lancia Beta, which was only partially protected from rust.

In general, the level of corrosion protection will be influenced by how much coating is applied, and how well. Today, coatings and the metals they’re applied to are developed together, so you can coat the metal thoroughly and evenly before it has been formed.

There are geographical differences in levels of corrosion protection. Vehicles supplied to the Gulf states don’t need to have such a high corrosion resistance. Those supplied to the UK need greater protection from road salt. In Russia, much of the soil is acidic because of the pine forests. If you’re supplying a global market, you need to plan for all these eventualities and over-specify your corrosion resistance.”

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/i...not-thing-past
-------------


Wikipedia on rust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust

berlinonaut

Which then would no doubt last for ever, be never rusting, ultra-robust, riding perfectly and be using highest level components...

There are thousands of Brompton owners out there that still ride Bromptons from the early nineties on a daily basis w/o problems. Brompton as a company is widely successful and therefor barely dependend from your advice. Plus I highly doubt that they are desperately reading the folding bike section on bike-forums, digging for advice for the strategy of their company.

From a client's perspective: A couple of years ago I calculated the running cost of a Brompton in comparison to i.e. a Dahon. At this time a M6RD model (upper midrange model with six gears, rack and dynamo-lights) would have costed about 1650 €. If you assume you'd spend 50 € per year on parts and maintenance on average (which is far more than in reality from my long-year experience with my own Bromptons that are used on a daily basis) after 10 years you'd have spent 2150€. You could then sell the used bike for at least 800 € (conservatively guessed and not counting inflation). So the total running cost over the period of 10 years would be roughly 1350.- € - 135 € per year or 11,25 € per month. I wold not call this an expensive way of transport. If you keep the Brommi for 25 years you'll end up with only a little lower resale value (maybe 600 €) and have therefor spent a total of 1650 € + 1250 € - 600 € = 2300 ¶. Which would equal 92 € per year or 7,66€ per month.

If you buy a cheapo folder for 400 Euros and you have to exchange it twice within this ten years (and to throw away the defective one) plus you spend the same 50€
per year amount on maintenance and parts as with the Brompton (including some for enhancements on superlow quality parts of the cheapo) you'd have spent 1200 € for the bike plus 500€ for parts and maintenance. You could sell the cheapo for assumend 150 €. Total running cost over 10 years is therefor 1550€ - 155 € per year or 12,91 per month - more expensive than buying a Brompton (which additionally probably would have some usage advantages and maybe more fun involved, too). Over 25 years your cheapo-strategy will sum up to 400€ * 6 (a new bike every four years) + 1250 parts and maintenance - 150 resale. 3500 / 25 equals 140 € per year 11,66 per month. Again more expensive than using a Brompton for the same amount of time.

My personal running cost on my "daily driver" Brompton after 10 years is as low as 6,90 € a month, including maintenance as well as buy-price (but no additional bling). Due to really low maintenance cost and a initial buy on offer. And I still have the bike, so resale is not even counted in...

Basically: The longer you use something the less important a higher initial price for the investment becomes for you total and monthly running cost. The more with the amazingly high prices for used Bromptons. Typically you are better off to buy a new one or a relatively young used one with little use than a older one - from the perspective of someone who knows Bromptons older ones are overpriced if you consider the changes on the bike over the years.
And the more intensively you use something the more it pays off to buy quality as it will last longer. And even those who do not like Bromptons admit that they are long-lasting bikes. Apart of you obviously.

So you do in fact not save anything by buying a cheaper bike - you end up spending more. At least if you really use the bike as your daily driver. And even if you would not save money in comparison to a cheapo: If you cannot afford to spend ~10 € per month on personal transport you have a serious problem... Usually you'll have saved that amount of cash within a couple of days by not having to buy public transport tickets or taxi bills, not talking about car insurance, petrol or maintenance.
Basically any folder will pay for itself in relatively short time if you really use it as a mode of transport and do not spend money on blingbling and gizmos.

Maybe you should do the same search with the term "car rust" - you'd probably be shocked!

If you think the brompton is crap - why did you buy one then? You wrote you recently bought one, dating from 2006. So obviously you don't have first hand experience. Why do you believe in a handful of pictures of unknown age and w/o context on blogs spread all over the world more than the people her on the froums that have been owning and riding their own Bromptons for years and years and therfor have first-hand experience and can provide context? And why on earth are you asking for advice here if your opinion is written in stone already? Arrogance + ignorance is usually a bad combination.

Probably you should resell your Brommi and go for the cheapest aluminum folder you can find - it will not rust and that's obviously all that counts for you. I think probably nobody here would care...

fietsbob

NB (re Aluminum as a material in aircraft) Commercial Aircraft get parked in the desert,, after logging a service life in X# of hours,
and re certified air worthy, inspected repeatedly, during the service life.

George3

Many companies have found out, that is important in a competitive market, to be sensitive to the perception of concerned customers, even if that customer perspective would be flawed by self-interest, greed, avarice, subjectivity, emotion, prejudice, and by lack of intelligence and professional expertise.

More and more companies choose to engage openly in forum discussions on the internet, or even start their own user forum on the web. There they can efficiently answer customer questions about product maintenance, warranty, complaints, product specs, etc.

Second hand Bromptons are highly overpriced in many larger cities, untill a competitive company will decide to make a seriously competing folder for less money. The Dahon Curl might fall into that category, but I know little of it yet.

In my perception most people don't buy a Brompton because it is hand made, but because there is/was no alternative, that folds small enough to use comfortably in train and bus. If the competition wil succeed in developing a mass produced competitor for the Brompton under a thousand dollars, Brompton might have a serious problem. It might be wise for Brompton to anticipate on that situation, including by reading customers' concerns on the internet.