La Tortue

Dude, there is more incorrect stuff in this thread it might as well be a politician's platform. I think folks just make up crap and throw it out to see what kind of response they'll get. Yes, there are age races, all women, races, pro races, Athena, and Clydesdale races. Team time trial races, whatever you can think of. They have an annual mens and women's academy where the winners gets a Pro Team contract. They come and go based on popularity. If you want to sponsor some weird something there's an avenue for that.

tomato coupe

Good to know, dude.

La Tortue

How does the Zwift TTT compare with the real thing? Velo news did a comparison.

Take a dive into the numbers from two different TTTs — one on Zwift and one from the 2018 Tirreno-Adriatico — and see just how realistic Zwift is.

burnthesheep

Not sure which leagues would catch this, but I've seen TTT races bring one "ringer" that almost pulls the entire time but takes enough breaks to not hit limits. Enabling the other riders to take bigger pulls.

I played "pack fodder" for a WRTL TTT group once. One dude pulled literally 1/3 to 1/2 of the entire 40min race at like 350w, while the rest of us were middling B's. We would rotate pulls when he had to drop off the back and help someone get back into the train.

If I saw that in my one and only ever WRTL race............it's bound to happen a lot more.

La Tortue

So where did they place? Thats an awful way to do it and if you do you surely will not place top tier of whichever Division you are in. If you pay close attention you' will see the fast teams have riders all similar in power. The technique you describe is pretty much bush league.

burnthesheep

Well, dude pulled at 350 and rest of us only pulled at like 300. We would have pulled at 300 regardless without that guy. So however many minutes that dude pulled at 350 was 50w more during that time than we would have pulled. So would assume we went faster than we should have if that guy could only pull at 300. Don't know.

La Tortue

Not sure if you know the rules but a Frappe team allows up to three A cats on the team. So if the guy was pulling 350 that is pretty much spot on..The B's can pull 300 so you guys should have been top 5 or so in a brutally hard Division. But, your comment that the guys had to go back and pull people up says your technique was poor. The top teams don't go back. Now that's not to say there aren't a lot of teams (Mine) whose objective is to keep everyone and get the best time possible. We can't win but we sure have fun. They have 7,000 racers in a TTT race where whining is unusual yet there are folks on the sideline claiming to change the system?

jadocs

How did you determine how many watts the other person was pulling? Did you know their weight?

La Tortue

Here is an example pulled from last nights TTT results. You can pull up anyone data you like. This is showing TFC's team data and where the fourth riders time is the official team time. And yes all the riders weights are known along with FTP's history etc. You guys are missing out on a lot if you aren't aware of these races. This one last night had over 6,000 riders and more than 1,000 teams. Have yet to see any whining over category cheats or sandbaggers. When they do its dealt with.

jadocs

Ah...yes, I mistakenly assumed it was real time off zwift.

La Tortue

You can pull it off real-time. You have his watts and w/kg prominently displayed simply by clicking on his name during the race.

jadocs

Also true

unterhausen

I moved this from General to Indoor cycling because I figured it might be easier to find in the future.

Sy Reene

Just when I was about to steer the conversation a bit by asking how many people have started to see their local outdoor club rides start using w/kg guidance for their rides, to supposedly better indicate the effort expected (starting to abandon the old A, B, C etc. ratings)?

gregf83 

Due to the somewhat unrealistic drafting effects in zwift outdoor riding can accommodate a much wider range of riders. In zwift if you're riding with a group of 20 riders averaging 4W/kg you should be able to 'sit in' at the back of the pack with about 2.8W/kg but it doesn't work that way. In real outdoor riding weaker riders can just sit in and not go to the front.

unterhausen

I have yet to notice a drafting effect in zwift like you do outdoors.

James1964 

Zwift relies on participant honesty. A bit of a stretch as you get into the more competitive groups.

gregf83 

Some races are 'Full Draft'. I think most normal zwift riding has the draft effect roughly 50% of normal.

atwl77

Zwift's drafting effect feels different from outdoor riding.
Outdoors you can feel the resistance to the pedals reduced when drafting behind someone, but on Zwift you don't get that feeling. Instead, you just ride faster at your given wattage, and it's up to you to monitor that closely and figure out how much less effort you can put out to stay within the group.

ingo

I am a light rider at 65 kg. If you want to win Cat based races on Zwift without going over the prescribed W/kg limits you must be very heavy (over 90kg) and within 0.1 W/kg of the upper limit for 20 minute power. Big and heavy racers at the same W/kg have a huge advantage on downhills, a large advantage on the flats, and a small advantage on uphills. Since drafting effect is reduced in Zwift, the large rider advantages are even greater than in real life. Zwift have admitted that they have reduced the draft effect compared to real physics. A long time ago I went through the results of C Cat races and no racer under 70 kg had ever won a race and stayed under the 3.2 W/kg limit. This is so unrealistic compared to real life that I stopped racing in categorized races and only enter mass start events. Sure I get dropped by the faster racers but at least you end up in a group of similar ability to race against. If Zwift ever goes to results based race categories I will start racing again. The only fair racing is in the A category where heavy riders get crushed. All the heavy riders lobby to keep the existing system, light riders have moved on and will race outside where the results are not biased.

I have also pointed out to Zwift that someone at the lower end of the W/kg Cat system (say 2.6 W/kg) gets crushed and does not enjoy racing, while someone at 2.5 W/kg has a great time. People are increasing their in game weight to stay in lower cats because it is no fun to get dropped in the first 200m and ride alone in a race.

unterhausen

I thing some things got messed up in your post. Short heavy riders might be better off downhill and on flats, but there is a penalty going uphill. I'm sure gaining just enough weight to go down a cat is worth it, but there is at least some price to be paid. Tall heavy riders are penalized everywhere.

ingo

Nope, at the same W/kg and height a heavy rider always goes faster than a lighter rider. This has been proven in speed tests by Zwift Insider.

Sy Reene

Isn't this just physics (not a Zwift thing)? I used a simple online calculator (bikecalculator.com) -- enter 50kg and 200 watts (4watts/kg) and 10% hill, vs. 100kg, 400 watts and 10% hill. The 400 watt scenario returns a faster speed. (approx. 12 vs 11 kph)

ingo

Yes, IRL that's true too so the physics in Zwift are directionally correct. The problems is to group racers into categories using this metric since heavy riders always have the advantage unless racing in A with no W/kg cap.

gregf83 

Because their W/kg (including bike) is higher.