Russ Roth

Last year my wife convinced me we didn't need a hub dyno and lighting and money was tight with the camping gear we already bought and on the first night we got lost in the dark. While it was nice to say I was right it wasn't convenient so this year's tour is being prepped starting with a pair of hub dynos for the adults and usb rechargeable lights for the kids. I'm looking at a shutter precision hub as it seems to get decent reviews for a good price along with a Busch and Muller 40lux light. During the day I wouldn't mind the extra drag to charge things and I'm looking at this
https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=38306 Busch and Muller USB Werk 361bw

to charge the two battery packs I have which will keep phones and USB lights topped up while riding. Will this be sufficent and is it decent or should I be looking at something more?
Secondary question. Are dynamo hubs solid enough to build into the existing wheels and riding with full time or should I build them into seperate wheels for touring use only.

billridesbikes

I think plug5+ with an in-line battery would be my preferred solution for charging from a dynamo hub as long as you have a 1 & 1/8 steerer tube. It has an always ‘on’ and load detection so it stops charging when your lights switch off. Haven’t looked at a comparison in a while, but I believe it has higher charging at lower speed than the werk.

Plug5

ChrisAlbertson

I have a USB current meter that is something like one of these
https://www.amazon.com/USB-Charger-Doctor-line-Voltage/

You place it between the charger and the device you are charging and it shows you the current used. An Apple iPhone charger can supply up to 1000 ma. Let's say the battery in the device holds 3000 milliamp-hours of power So then a 1000 milliamp hour chargr will need three hours.
My bike lights and phone all will accept the full 1000 milliamps the charger can supply. The charger in you link claims to suply only 500 milliamps so it would take twice as long as my Apple charger.

The next question is how many hours a day will you ride? It takes 3 hours to charge my larger bike light using an Apple charger if the light is flat-dead. So it would take 6 hours on the 500 ma charger.

What you need to do is measure how much power you devices used. Buy the amp meter and keep notes on the charge time and multipley milliamps and hours and then you know how many miliamphours per day of charging you will need. The charger you linked to supply 500 milliamp hours per hour.

You can dramatically reduce you power needs by placing the pones on "airplane mode" and then only using them for minutes at a time when needed. Switch it one for 10 minutes to let it download any texts then back on "airplane mode". In this way a phone battery can mabe 4 days. Same with lights. Keep them in low power daylight flash mode.


I would brig spare lights that use non-rechargable batteries as a backup.

Bottom line is that a 500 ma charger is weak but you will have two of them and you can cut your power use. I'd run experiments at home for a few weeks and the USB meter can be informative.

polyphrast

Here is a nice overview about dynamo power harvester (like the E-Werk). In case you need more power, take a look at pedalcell.com (But don't forget that you'll have at least considerably more drag with that system, even if it has an efficiency of 60-65%)

Regarding hub dynos: All better dyno hubs are solid enough to use full time. In case you don't want to spent time of rebuilding your wheel (or you don't want to pay someone for this), take a look at the velogical rim dynamo (here and here are some english reviews). Those are not cheap, but you don't need a new wheel, and they are as good as modern hub dynos. If you order them from outside the EU, you can deduct 19% VAT tax from the price (and have to consider duty/import taxes). There are different versions, one for slower travel (and higher power output), one for lower drag (and less power)

40 lux is imo a bit too less brightness, unless you drive in complete darkness (without ambient street lights or car lights)

Russ Roth

I'd looked at that and it isn't in the budget as cool as it is.

looking at the plugs that power the devices I'm going with you being right and it's not powerful enough. I suspect I'm going to have compromises on this just due to budget with needing a little more equipment and the trip itself but will look for something different and increase the budget some.

It looks like my setup with sloped profile rims and no braking track might not be ideal for that though I'd considered a tire Dynamo to avoid the whole building an extra wheel. If they're reliable enough for day to day use that changes some things. I've only had experience with cheap old bottle dynamos on Sears 3sp specials so I don't know what to expect from them. Thanks for the link though, some good info there.

alo

I suggest using solar lights. They will charge just by being exposed to sunlight. https://www.bikeforums.net/electroni...le-lights.html

For charging phones and other things, I suggest a power bank with a solar charger.

Using a dynamo means you need to pedal a bit harder. It may not put out enough power anyway. It also eliminates the need to rebuild a wheel, if you were to use a hub dynamo.

Tourist in MSN

Dynohub hubs are just as good as regular hubs. I have built up two new wheels with SP hubs, very happy with them, the oldest one was built in 2013. Use them just like any other wheel.

I do not feel any extra drag from using a dyno powered light or using a Sinewave Revolution charger. I think the USB Werk will draw about the same power as the Sinewave, you should feel no extra drag.

I rely on the dynohubs for touring mostly for battery charging. I ride at night so rarely on bike tours that I almost never use a headlamp on my bike on a tour. My expedition bike has S&S couplers and it has to be nearly disassembled and reassembled when I fly somewhere, I decided on my last tour to not even install a headlight on the bike. Instead carried a headlight in my handlebar bag that I could plug into my battery pack with a USB cable in case I needed it for a tunnel or trip to the pub, it attaches to the handlebar with an elastic band. I used my dynohub 100 percent for USB charging, not for lighting on my last tour.

On flat ground I get about 2 watts of power on average out of my Sinewave Revolution charger into my power bank, assuming some stop lights, etc. Where more ups and downs, the uphills produce a lot less power because of my slower speed, so likely less than 2 watts when touring in hilly areas. By being stingy with my power use, I can be self sufficient for power on a tour. But I go on multi-week tours. My battery pack is rated at 44 watt hours. My point is that to take my battery pack from empty to full would require 20 to 30 hours of rolling time. If you are sold on the dynohub, then get it, but do not think a few hours of rolling will charge up all of your devices, they do not put out that much power.

How long are your tours? If you are talking a week or less, I think you would be best off with some good battery powered lights, use AA or AAA batteries. Then if you find you need more batteries, every convenience store sells AA and AAA batteries. And a good sized battery pack to charge up a phone. And skip the dynohub upgrade.

I use Ikea Ladda white AA and AAA NiMH rechargeable batteries, the white ones cost more than the others that they sell but the white ones are better.

If you do get a dynohub, I am pretty happy with the B&M IQ-XS headlight, it is low budget from Bike24 but well built with a nice beam pattern. I have that on my rando bike.

adamrice 

I've been looking into this myself, and depending on the length of your ride and how long you need to be electrically self-sufficient, power banks may be the cheaper and easier option.

Lights are by far the biggest draw on your power—my guesstimate is that a smartphone or bike computer draws about 0.2 W; a medium-powerful headlight draws about 5.5 W (about 27× as much). You can do the math on expected hours of use for each gadget, the gadget's power draw, and how big a power bank you'd need to cover that use: hours of use × draw in watts = power need in watt-hours. A big power banks weighs about 1 lb and has about 90 Wh capacity; by my math, that is enough to run one person's lights and other gadgets for almost 3 days if using them very intensively, or longer if used less intensively. Even if you go with a dynohub for your lights, it may make sense to use a power bank to run your other gadgets.

pdlamb

On whether to buy a new wheel -- yes. Dyno hubs are solid, but their dimensions probably don't match your existing hub. So you'll have to buy new spokes, a new hub, and either pay someone (or DIY) to take the old rim off the existing wheel before you can start building a new wheel. You can probably find a rim in the $30 range, and that's cheaper than paying for a builder's time to take the old wheel apart.

Plus you'll have a spare wheel if you need one.

Tourist in MSN

One more comment, if you get a dynohub wheel, if your front wheel rims have brake wear, it would be better to go with new rim, meaning a whole new wheel with dynohub. But if old wheel is a disc brake wheel, then the rim should not have any wear, then using the old rim in a new wheel might make financial sense.

Even if you are using a rim brake bike, buying the disc brake version hub could make sense. A friend of mine bought a new dynohub complete wheel three years ago with a rim brake hub, then last year bought a new disk brake bike. Suddenly his dynohub wheel is not getting much use any more.

Russ Roth

I'd looked at these at REI and I just wasn't certain there's a real guarantee of getting enough lighting. Many of the trails that we've followed in the past had a lot of tree growth that limited lighting, there might be enough time while camping I just didnt know how well they work overall.

I'd rather not rely on replaceable rechargeable batteries, that just seems like something to lose out on the road. Based on some of the advice here and some of the links to read I'm now leaning towards the B+M IQ2 Luxos which is a 90 lux light with handlebar remote that also has a USB port. There's a couple thing pushing the dyno light including one less thing to charge, the desire to start doing long distance gravel races that battery lights will run out of power for, and the need to devote battery life to headlamps for camping, cell phones, kindles for the kids. Having lighting that isn't dependent on other resources seems like a good idea overall.

We carried 2 power banks with us last year and due to constant roaming ended up draining them by the end of 5 days; this year I don't expect to be roaming except in some of the more rural areas and even then not for long. A couple extra might not be the worst idea but they do start to add up weight and space and I'd like to trim things down.

I'm slightly ocd about how things match on my bikes and will have to decide between building into a new rim or into the old wheel, but with others claiming it should last years just the cost of spokes to rebuild makes building into the old wheel a more attractive option.

Good heads up, for my bike I already have to get a 12mm thru axle and disc brake, for others who might read this its an important detail.

alo

Why don't you buy some solar lights, and try them out. If you like them, you can use them on future trips. I don't know what other lights you may use, so I cant tell you how they will compare. For casual riders who just want to get around after dark, these are brilliant. They could also be used as flashlights while camping. After using them, come back to this forum and let us know what you think.

You can buy power banks with solar panels on them, which charge the batteries. I suggest you buy these.

Tourist in MSN

Got it. I assumed that you only needed the electrical stuff for short tours with the family, did not realize this was also to be used for something like gravel racing. Yeah, I can see why you would want a dynohub.

Sounds like you mean the B&M Luxos U, be careful when you order that you get the "U" version, the "B" version of the Luxos does not have the USB port.

I have a Luxos U on one of my touring bikes, nice light, very nice beam pattern, the USB charging plays well with my Garmin GPS for charging. Has a small internal pass through cache battery pack so that it will keep charging your GPS when you stop at a stop light, etc.

You will find that the Luxos U will only produce as much power at the USB port as your hub produces, but the small internal pass through cache battery pack has only about 1 watt hour of capacity and it can deliver power to your device faster than the hub can produce it. So, you will find that the charging can be off and on as the internal electronics charge up and discharge that internal battery pack. That is not a problem, but when you first get it, it can be a surprise and you might think that something is broken if you find that it stopped charging your device for a while.

The Luxos U puts out 70 lux, but for short periods can put out 90 lux by using power from the internal cache battery pack, I almost never use the 90 lux so I can't say how long you can get the higher power lighting.

Not sure how well the light pattern will work for gravel racing, the light pattern is much like a car low beam headlight, wide with a sharp cut off that avoids shining bright light in the eyes of oncoming traffic. But if your gravel racing will have much ups and downs, since I have never done any gravel racing I have no idea how well that light pattern will work for it. This light pattern photo is at the 90, not 70 lux rate.
https://www.bumm.de/files/Produkte/9...0Flutlicht.jpg

But the Luxos U has a large plastic housing, I find that there is nothing wrong with that housing, but some have cracked them or broken the housing at the mount. I am careful to avoid doing something stupid with the light that might break it and I generally am careful with all my stuff, so that has not been a problem. Just giving you a heads up.

Keep in mind what I said previously when touring with family, if you are producing less than 2 watts when you are rolling, you are not going to be charging up a lot of other devices unless you start your trip with a large power bank that has several extra days of capacity. On a longer trip you might also need to charge up a power bank.

I wrote up a long forum post on a different forum on what works for me for electrics when bike touring after my last tour, it was a solo tour for five weeks, almost exclusively camping. You previously saw my comment that for touring, I only use the hub for charging, not lighting, I elaborate in that post on what I brought with me and why I chose each item that I used, that post is at:
Electrics that I use for bike touring - what works for me.


I agree with your thoughts on solar. You are not going to charge up a power bank that has a built in solar panel in a reasonable amount of time. I bought a couple powerbanks that have built in solar panels, I bought them because they are good power banks and were on a clearance price. Happy with them, but I did not buy them for the panels, it would take 30 hours of direct sunlight on a clear day with the power banks aimed just right to charge them up.

unterhausen

I have never gotten close to losing a battery on the road, but there is a series on Amazon called "ride to extraordinary" where someone did. He needed to charge something, and when he looked for his "technology bag" it wasn't there. I did lose a light once. Must have left it in the hotel

Trevtassie

None of the lights with Usb ports are useful for anything other than providing an emergency charge for a phone or running a GPS unit at 5V 500mA = 2.5W. You can get a lot of power out of a dynohub, up to 10W , but it costs money to do so. Probably the highest output device so far is the Forumslader, from Germany, it has a lot of trickery so it can maximise the efficiency of the hub at low speeds like you'd find touring, but it's not cheap!

Tourist in MSN

Cycle2charge also claims high output. Price is not bad. I do not have one, only looked at web info.

noglider 

A USB charger fed by a dynamo hub MIGHT be worth it, but extra batteries ARE worth it, so get them first, and then decide about a charger. And even if you use a charger, you should also bring the extra batteries. The charger is a lot of expense which doesn't really yield a lot of watt hours. If they made them so that they provided a lot of energy, they would also cost you a lot of energy from your body, and that's no good, so they don't make sense for most people. My favorite extra battery is the Anker Astro E1. It's $26, and it's rated at 6,700 mAH. You can get a bigger one, but if you need more than that capacity, get two, because you can charge two at once, and you're not carrying any more weight than you would with a larger battery. If two aren't enough, get four. I got a gigantic battery that weighs a pound (450 grams) and it didn't work out so well: the charging time is much too long, and one of the connectors failed, and it's undependable, so the Anker Astro seems like the ideal choice.

polyphrast

From what i've read in forums and reviews, the velogicals are pretty reliable (unless very icy...). conventional sidewall dynos just destroy the tire, if you press them to hard to the tire. The velogical can press much stronger against the rim without damaging anything.
Just send an email to them, if you like the concept, to inquire whether it'd work with your rim. The guys are pretty helpful (i once inquired about their e-bike-motors)


Depending on the harvester model, you can get a lot more power from the dyno, even at reasonable 20 km/h: see this graph (taken from this site, with the originals coming from fahrradzukunft.de).

In that overview, they also mention the Axa Luxx 70 Plus as a light with USB port, and it even has a switch to select whether you want light or charging. Here is a review of this lamp

Tourist in MSN

My data was based on actual riding, not on a lab measurement where you never stop. I used a meter to measure milliamp hours and time.

Based on this graph, up to about 20 km/hr, all the chargers are about the same except the Forumslader is much greater output. My measurement is from a Sinewave Revolution. Above 20 km/hr is were some chargers deviate from the mean.
https://fahrradzukunft.de/bilder/21/...4/13.gross.png

That graph is from this english translation of the original German.
https://translate.google.com/transla...00271,15700301

JohnJ80

Dynamo hubs are something like 6W output at USB voltages that's 500mA so for an hour of riding you can get 500mAh out. Given that a cell phone battery is about 3200 Mahers that will take about 6 hours to charge your cell phone - give or take. So you can use that and decide if it's worth it for you. It's not for me, so I would rather have a larger battery with me and hunt for outlets on occasion.

With the newer USB-C PD input capable batteries, you can get a battery that charges very fast. There are a lot around that will charge at 30W in, a fair number at 45 or 60W for charging and now even seeing some 100W charging. That means you can expect to charge a decent size battery in maybe as little as 30 minutes. Anker makes some GaN based chargers that are about the size of the apple 5W charger for the iPhone but are 30W chargers. To my way of thinking, that's the way to go. Dynamos seem to be a lot of expense and weight for, at best, marginal charging capability. And that capability has to come out of my legs to boot.

Agree.

Tourist in MSN

I have that light, the Luxos U is a better light, I have both of them. I do not have time now to elaborate, let me know if you have questions.

My Luxos U, but the mount is one I bent to fit, not stock off the shelf



AXA Luxx 70 Plus below:

polyphrast

I thought as well that the beamshape of the luxos would be better, only advantage of the Axa is imo that you can choose "usb charging" only. Depends what is more important, good light or full charging capability at any time (i'd choose the beam pattern...)

i got that your data was from actual riding and that will be of course less that the theoretical data. But there are a few newer articles in that series, and there are more models available in the power class of the forumslader:
Socket-on-the-go part 6 (see graph), socket-on-the-go part 7 (see graph)
according to the pecalcell blog, fahrradzukunft got an example for testing as well, i am curious what they will measure.

unterhausen

I have a luxos U. I was never real happy about the charger. But I guess I might be happier if I used it to charge a battery.

I'm afraid to use my Luxos U, because I know so many people that have had issues with them

Tourist in MSN

Unterhausen raises a good point, some lights including the Luxos U have had a reputation for water ingress or other failures. I think that most of the water problems with the Luxos U were solved after they re-designed the remote switch several years ago, but you still occasionally hear of failures. Apparently the four electrical contacts in the rear are not waterproofed in any way. I do not tour with my Luxos U, I mostly use it for around home riding and I usually do not ride on rainy days by choice.

There are merits to a good charger and a separate headlamp. Then if one fails, you still have the other and you can replace the part that failed later.

I noted above that I have a IQ-XS on my rando bike which puts out a good light beam for riding on pavement, is a good price, and is pretty robust for construction, I like the beam on the Luxos U better, but only slightly better that the XS.

And I use a Sinewave Revolution charger which is VERY water proof for touring. Have been using the same one since I bought it in 2016 for a trip to Iceland where it is known for frequent precipitation, I specifically wanted the best waterproofed charger I could find for that trip.

That light and a Sinewave Revolution (or similar) charger as a pair are comparably priced to a Luxos U for USA based buyers. The disadvantage to this pair is that some devices that are picky about their power supply (my Garmin 64 is VERY picky) need a pass through cache battery and the Sinewave lacks that while the Luxos U includes it.

noglider 

The drag is not that bad. It's so little that you can't feel it. But the power output is low. It's 3W (at 6V) nominally, not 6W. They could make dynamos that put out more, but then the drag would be intolerable. So they're great for powering lights, but that's because lights do great with 2 or 3 watts. But it's not enough or cost-justified for charging except in a very few cases. And even if it's good for charging, you should still have at least one spare external battery.

I run dynamo lights, and they work great for me. I run them day or night, so there is no charging available from the system.