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Does A Base Layer Keep A Rider Cooler in Hot Weather

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Does A Base Layer Keep A Rider Cooler in Hot Weather

Old 08-01-20, 02:36 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
This is dubious because it doesn't say anything about how effective or how well formulated the test was.
No, but that's how science works. If you wore a base layer on a hot day and felt hotter and sweated more than you did on a hot day with only a jersey, that would disprove the hypothesis, wouldn't it?
Red bikes are fastest.
Everyone knows it and there is a guy in our club who is the fastest and he is on a red bike.
So I raced some blue bikes, black, and green.
They were all the same.
Therefore according to your statement red bikes are most likely the fastest!
Nonsense! I proposed the same rider try riding with and without. That eliminates the variable of the rider right off the bat. There's still the subjectivity of the observation, but you could go out on days that are the same temperature, riding the same route at the same speed - or ideally the same power output at all points, and observe how much you drank and your weight before and after each. Do this repeatedly and you build up significance, just as you would if you had more riders conduct the same experiment.

Not disproving something is a long long way from proving it to be right.
True, but disproving it is as far as you need to go in proving it to be wrong.

Thankfully our court system doesn't work that way and neither does any good scientist.
Sorry to disappoint you, but that is exactly how all good scientists work.

You come up with your hypothesis, and then you try as hard as you can to prove yourself wrong - "If this hypothesis is true, then If I do X, the result should be Y." If the result is Y, you still haven't proved your hypothesis, you simply failed to DISprove it. It doesn't mean it's true, it just means you've now know that it's LIKELY to be true. You keep on trying to disprove it as better tests become available, and maybe you finally reach the point where it fails a test, and then you refine it, and test the refinement. Part of this is the knowledge that other people will also be trying to disprove your hypothesis, and it's better for your ego and your career if YOU do it, rather than somebody else.

This is the entire point of p-values - they tell you how likely your result is to just be by chance. We generally accept results that have less than a 5% chance of being wrong, but that means we still can be wrong 1 out of 20 times. That's science. The lower the p-value, the more likely you're right, but it's never zero.

The courts work on the basis of who makes the most compelling argument to either a judge or a jury. If that proved things, there'd never be reversed verdicts, and nobody ever exonerated.
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Old 08-01-20, 03:13 PM
  #127  
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Is this a related question.. on a really hot day, how many tour riders have their jerseys unzipped? Or is this an aero thing?
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Old 08-01-20, 03:51 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Is this a related question.. on a really hot day, how many tour riders have their jerseys unzipped? Or is this an aero thing?
That's a really interesting question. I know that in the fairly recent past, a large proportion of fast riders are doing the zip-up, even the hook-up and zip right before the finish, Many were wearing mesh-top bibs. I haven't watched enough cycling TV in the last few years, since the new wicking fabrics have taken over, to know one way or the other. Anyone? Photos? Can't be within say 300m of the finish.

I just watched a little from TdF 2019. Sure was fun to watch Bernal and Alaphillipe again. I didn't see a single underlayer. Most did the 6" unzip, a very few 12" unzip. No open jerseys that I saw. Unless someone has more hot weather GT info . . .
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Old 08-01-20, 04:32 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
No, but that's how science works. If you wore a base layer on a hot day and felt hotter and sweated more than you did on a hot day with only a jersey, that would disprove the hypothesis, wouldn't it?


Nonsense! I proposed the same rider try riding with and without. That eliminates the variable of the rider right off the bat. There's still the subjectivity of the observation, but you could go out on days that are the same temperature, riding the same route at the same speed - or ideally the same power output at all points, and observe how much you drank and your weight before and after each. Do this repeatedly and you build up significance, just as you would if you had more riders conduct the same experiment.



True, but disproving it is as far as you need to go in proving it to be wrong.



Sorry to disappoint you, but that is exactly how all good scientists work.

You come up with your hypothesis, and then you try as hard as you can to prove yourself wrong - "If this hypothesis is true, then If I do X, the result should be Y." If the result is Y, you still haven't proved your hypothesis, you simply failed to DISprove it. It doesn't mean it's true, it just means you've now know that it's LIKELY to be true. You keep on trying to disprove it as better tests become available, and maybe you finally reach the point where it fails a test, and then you refine it, and test the refinement. Part of this is the knowledge that other people will also be trying to disprove your hypothesis, and it's better for your ego and your career if YOU do it, rather than somebody else.

This is the entire point of p-values - they tell you how likely your result is to just be by chance. We generally accept results that have less than a 5% chance of being wrong, but that means we still can be wrong 1 out of 20 times. That's science. The lower the p-value, the more likely you're right, but it's never zero.

The courts work on the basis of who makes the most compelling argument to either a judge or a jury. If that proved things, there'd never be reversed verdicts, and nobody ever exonerated.
You are mostly on the right track here, but let me pose it more succinctly and as working scientists actually proceed:

- A hypothesis is proposed.
-An empirical test is investigated that if successful, disproves the hypothesis.
-If the test disproves the hypothesis, the hypothesis must be discarded. If it does not, then the proposition that the hypothesis is true cannot be excluded (without further research).
Statistical tests can be posed to evaluate the certainty that the hypothesis can be discarded. In general, they do not evaluate the certainty that the hypothesis is true.

-
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Old 08-01-20, 04:52 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
You are mostly on the right track here, but let me pose it more succinctly and as working scientists actually proceed:

- A hypothesis is proposed.
-An empirical test is investigated that if successful, disproves the hypothesis.
-If the test disproves the hypothesis, the hypothesis must be discarded. If it does not, then the proposition that the hypothesis is true cannot be excluded (without further research).
Statistical tests can be posed to evaluate the certainty that the hypothesis can be discarded. In general, they do not evaluate the certainty that the hypothesis is true.

-
Exactly. Just as I said but in fewer words.

I just like the idea that I spend my professional life trying as hard as possible to prove myself wrong, and if I fail, I succeed.
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Old 08-01-20, 05:15 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
If you are talking about the insulating effect of a layer of water inhibiting the cooling to your skin ,then it would have to be a rather thick layer. The thermal diffusivity of water (D) is around 0.2 mm/sec^2, which means that for a layer (x) 1-2 mm thick (that's a thick layer, think about it), the thermal equilibration time (x^2/D) is just a few seconds.

BTW, a uniform layer 1 mm thick on your entire body would be almost 2 liters of water (average male body has a surface area of 1.9 m^2, etc.).
Yes, that pretty much was the point I was trying to make. I certainly can't prove you wrong and you do now seem to be addressing what I was saying instead of dismissing it.

On my ride yesterday, I weighed before and after riding with cycling shorts and jersey on. I weighed the same after the ride. I drank 67 ounces of water on the ride and pee'd just about 10 of those ounces immediately after weighing. So surprisingly, your 2 litres of water 1 mil thick has merit for being a great example. If I hadn't run out of water, I would have road the full three hours and probably made that 2 litres of sweat.

So I understand a little better where you disagree about the negligible benefit to the body being able to cool itself by ridding itself of excess sweat. There are other factors though, one of them being that sweat doesn't pool evenly over all your body. Most all my upper body sweat runs down to my shorts. Where after the saddle I don't know.

I still don't want it on me, so in the heat, I want to lose any excess that isn't going to disappear through evaporation. Even if it doesn't help with letting the body cool itself, it does help keep my clothes fitting snug enough not to rub me. The wetter places on my skin always were the places where I felt abrasion starting. Though I can honestly say I haven't had a saddle sore in the past 15 years. Came close, but close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.

Maybe in winter we can re-visit this topic. I'll be wanting a base layer and several other layers then. <grin>

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Old 08-01-20, 05:31 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Is this a related question.. on a really hot day, how many tour riders have their jerseys unzipped? Or is this an aero thing?
I wonder about that too. Sometimes I find I've done a long ride with my jersey zipped up and other times I'm zipping it down half way.

I do it because I'm feeling hot. The days I don't do it are just as high a temperature. Maybe I should add that to my notes post ride and try to figure out if it is dew point/relative humidity related or something else entirely.
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Old 08-01-20, 07:26 PM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Also a lot of base layers are UPF 25 to 50, so you don't have to use chemical sunblock (or reapply on a long day). I don't like the way it feels on my skin.
Some jersey fabrics are UPF rated too, and others are still sun blocking without the testing.
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Old 08-01-20, 08:58 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Yes, that pretty much was the point I was trying to make. I certainly can't prove you wrong and you do now seem to be addressing what I was saying instead of dismissing it.

On my ride yesterday, I weighed before and after riding with cycling shorts and jersey on. I weighed the same after the ride. I drank 67 ounces of water on the ride and pee'd just about 10 of those ounces immediately after weighing. So surprisingly, your 2 litres of water 1 mil thick has merit for being a great example. If I hadn't run out of water, I would have road the full three hours and probably made that 2 litres of sweat.

So I understand a little better where you disagree about the negligible benefit to the body being able to cool itself by ridding itself of excess sweat. There are other factors though, one of them being that sweat doesn't pool evenly over all your body. Most all my upper body sweat runs down to my shorts. Where after the saddle I don't know.

I still don't want it on me, so in the heat, I want to lose any excess that isn't going to disappear through evaporation. Even if it doesn't help with letting the body cool itself, it does help keep my clothes fitting snug enough not to rub me. The wetter places on my skin always were the places where I felt abrasion starting. Though I can honestly say I haven't had a saddle sore in the past 15 years. Came close, but close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.

Maybe in winter we can re-visit this topic. I'll be wanting a base layer and several other layers then. <grin>


According to these guys, if you weigh the same at the end of a (endurance) ride, then you are over-hydrating.

https://www.hammernutrition.com/medi...nghandbook.pdf
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Old 08-01-20, 11:09 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
I can't see how this is even a discussion.
Forget the science. You don't need it.
Go for a ride on a hot day with a base layer on. Remove it mid ride and see if it is cooler.
I have always found it to be cooler without it.
Has anyone found otherwise? I am not talking about theory, but personal experience.
Anyone ever seen a Pro racing on a hot day wearing a base layer?


Dean V,

Your post hit the nail on the head. Thanks for the refreshing submission of common sense !
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Old 08-02-20, 07:16 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
Has anyone put a base layer on under their cycling top and thought it was cooler?
.
I've done the reverse and never again. When I tried a base-layer under my jersey in hot dry full sun I stopped not even 1/3rd of the way into the ride to take the base layer off and it was (relatively) refreshing to get going again.
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Old 08-02-20, 11:30 AM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by woodcraft View Post
According to these guys, if you weigh the same at the end of a (endurance) ride, then you are over-hydrating.

https://www.hammernutrition.com/medi...nghandbook.pdf
I, as in me myself and I did not weigh the same. I, as in my jersey, my shorts my socks and I together weighed the same. There was probably a pound of sweat in my clothes.

I use some of hammer's products. Heed and Endurolytes in particular. I started using them because of their articles like you posted a link to that give me a lot of information that other makers of similar products don't. Hammer's literature isn't without contradiction though within their own articles.

https://www.hammernutrition.com/medi...nghandbook.pdf

I can't bash them for the slight contradictions though. Their literature is a showcase of article excerpts written by multiple entities. Probably with slightly different criteria and focus. But on a broad basis, I find Hammer's literature very useful to gain information and start my awareness of things I have not considered..

The average conditions for the suggestions are never really defined well. A few quoted studies in the article that do state temperature it is 70F. At that temp my fluid consumption is about 24 oz per hour.

I'm very aware of my fluid consumption while riding and have been for roughly ten years. Some of my routes don't have places for me to get water or other drink, so to do long rides, I have to carry it with me.

Ten years ago I came to terms with heat exhaustion and lost. Thankfully I was in the shade when I passed out on the bright sunny day with temps over 100F because no one else passed by. Since that episode, I hydrate. And I am very aware of both Hyponatremia and Hypernatremia.
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Old 08-02-20, 01:53 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
Where I live, for most here, 85 degrees is considered very hot. In other places, it doesn’t get as low as that all summer. Our bodies adjust to the perception of cold and hot at some level. I wonder if the same thing happens with those of us who wear base layers in the summer; we get used to the added feel of heat?
You are lucky and with such a modest “hot” definition I actually suspect base layer makes little difference.

My perception is that when it’s really hot and/or humid, no base layer is better. I accept that I have no objective proof.
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Old 08-02-20, 02:20 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I, as in me myself and I did not weigh the same. I, as in my jersey, my shorts my socks and I together weighed the same. There was probably a pound of sweat in my clothes.

I use some of hammer's products. Heed and Endurolytes in particular. I started using them because of their articles like you posted a link to that give me a lot of information that other makers of similar products don't. Hammer's literature isn't without contradiction though within their own articles.

https://www.hammernutrition.com/medi...nghandbook.pdf

I can't bash them for the slight contradictions though. Their literature is a showcase of article excerpts written by multiple entities. Probably with slightly different criteria and focus. But on a broad basis, I find Hammer's literature very useful to gain information and start my awareness of things I have not considered..

The average conditions for the suggestions are never really defined well. A few quoted studies in the article that do state temperature it is 70F. At that temp my fluid consumption is about 24 oz per hour.

I'm very aware of my fluid consumption while riding and have been for roughly ten years. Some of my routes don't have places for me to get water or other drink, so to do long rides, I have to carry it with me.

Ten years ago I came to terms with heat exhaustion and lost. Thankfully I was in the shade when I passed out on the bright sunny day with temps over 100F because no one else passed by. Since that episode, I hydrate. And I am very aware of both Hyponatremia and Hypernatremia.


This was one of the issues noted in the paper on measuring sweat linked in post #93

I don't seem to sweat that much. Yesterday's ride was 75-90˚, moderate effort, wind, and humidity, and I drank 22oz of water for most of it- over 3 hours.
Social stop and a 12oz beer before the last 5 miles, and drank some water on returning, but normal pee, etc..
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Old 08-02-20, 04:58 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by woodcraft View Post
This was one of the issues noted in the paper on measuring sweat linked in post #93

I don't seem to sweat that much. Yesterday's ride was 75-90˚, moderate effort, wind, and humidity, and I drank 22oz of water for most of it- over 3 hours.
Social stop and a 12oz beer before the last 5 miles, and drank some water on returning, but normal pee, etc..
Today's ride, in an average temp of 72 degrees, I drank 2 x 24 oz bottles of Nuun hydration mix and weighed 3.6 lbs less than I started. That means I sweated and/or transpired 6.7 lbs in the course of 3 h 10 min.
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Old 08-02-20, 05:17 PM
  #141  
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One interesting thing about cycling and heat regulation is that I spend the first half hour or 45 minutes of a ride on a hot day feeling uncomfortably hot, after which the discomfort gradually diminishes. I assume that it takes that long for the sweating to catch up with the heat being generated by my effort, but maybe MinnMan can explain the phenomenon more clearly.
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Old 08-02-20, 05:39 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Today's ride, in an average temp of 72 degrees, I drank 2 x 24 oz bottles of Nuun hydration mix and weighed 3.6 lbs less than I started. That means I sweated and/or transpired 6.7 lbs in the course of 3 h 10 min.

The Hammer guideline (pictured above) is that a 2% weight drop is acceptable. I think I sometimes go over that on long rides & pay a performance penalty,

but I also wear a baselayer, so I don't have to sweat as much.
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Old 08-02-20, 06:11 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Today's ride, in an average temp of 72 degrees, I drank 2 x 24 oz bottles of Nuun hydration mix and weighed 3.6 lbs less than I started. That means I sweated and/or transpired 6.7 lbs in the course of 3 h 10 min.
An average temp of 72 degrees? I'd be wearing a base layer to help stay warm.

An average of 72 degrees is what we get in early March(sometimes even late February).
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Old 08-02-20, 06:15 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
An average temp of 72 degrees? I'd be wearing a base layer to help stay warm.

An average of 72 degrees is what we get in early March(sometimes even late February).
In summer it's nice when it goes down to 72 at night.
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Old 08-02-20, 06:20 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
In summer it's nice when it goes down to 72 at night.
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Old 08-02-20, 06:36 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Yeah, I don't know how you do it. I know you've said you enjoy the heat, but damn. Luckily for me it's been cooling down at night here, even below 70 tonight. I remember nights trying to sleep when it was 95 at 10pm. Never really had good a/c then.

Only 95 here tomorrow!
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Old 08-02-20, 06:45 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
Yeah, I don't know how you do it. I know you've said you enjoy the heat, but damn. Luckily for me it's been cooling down at night here, even below 70 tonight. I remember nights trying to sleep when it was 95 at 10pm. Never really had good a/c then.
Last week sucked, but it was unusually hot(118F or even higher in traffic), but under 110F is no big deal as long as you keep moving. I don't like to start rides at over 100ish, but if it's 118F when I get out of work, you just HTFU, and ride home.

This July has been strange because we haven't had any monsoons. In my area of town, we haven't had a drop of rain since 3/18.
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Old 08-02-20, 06:59 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Last week sucked, but it was unusually hot(118F or even higher in traffic), but under 110F is no big deal as long as you keep moving. I don't like to start rides at over 100ish, but if it's 118F when I get out of work, you just HTFU, and ride home.

This July has been strange because we haven't had any monsoons. In my area of town, we haven't had a drop of rain since 3/18.
I can't even imagine. And they say that in a decade or two, we'll begin seeing well into the 120s in those places.
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Old 08-02-20, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
I can't even imagine. And they say that in a decade or two, we'll begin seeing well into the 120s in those places.
Which does make one wonder, since people only migrated to those places because A/C became available, will the migration to the Sun Belt slow down and then reverse?
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Old 08-03-20, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Which does make one wonder, since people only migrated to those places because A/C became available, will the migration to the Sun Belt slow down and then reverse?
Is A/C becoming unavailable?

FTR, I hope people stop moving here. In 1995 my house was on the edge of the desert, but now we are about 8 miles from undeveloped land.
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