yangmusa

Thanks again for all the info James! I feel a little guilty pestering you with all these questions

(cough) that said, I can think of yet another, since you live in SF.. I'm a little concerned that the Swift's low gear of 36" may be a little high for SF hills. How do you find it? How about with a pannier or two full of food?!

(My recumbent has a low of around 20", which I use a lot when I'm carrying stuff up steep hills..But then again I have to spin since I can't stand up on the pedals...)

cheers, Magnus

james_swift

Some pics (finally) of my new ride:





I call it my "Performance Edition Swift", as all of the aftermarket parts were purchased at my local Performance Bike shop (saddle, pedals, bar, bar-ends, stem, cyclometer). Most of the parts I was able to purchase $10-$15 below advertised price through special in-store-sales, coupons, and clearance sales.

The only modification I made to the stock geometry was cut the stem post down 3 inches (with a hacksaw) to get my handlebar 2 inches below the top of my saddle.

james_swift

I haven't taken the bike up California street yet, so I can't say how it would do on the extreme end, but as for getting around most of the SOMA district, I find that with 8lbs in my messenger bag, the gearing has been perfect (I haven't even shifted through 3rd, 2nd, and 1st yet....haven't had the need to.) I stand on the pedals every chance I get, so I'm usually climbing in 4th.

yangmusa

Sweet! Do the carbon fibre parts make a worth while weight saving, or was it mainly to get the stretched riding position you like?

cheers, Magnus

james_swift

The carbon bar is noticeably lighter than the aluminum bar, but aside from the weight savings, carbon supposedly absorbs road vibration better than aluminum. I mainly went for the carbon bar because a.)the stock Swift aluminum bar was too narrow for my preference b.)it looks cool c.)at the time, it was $10 below the advertised sale price ($39), which is pretty cheap for a carbon bar.

v1nce

Hey yet another question on the Swift. I've been reading their site extensively and it says:

"Competitive folding bicycles include the Brompton, Birdy, Bike Friday, and Dahon Helios. The big advantage over the Brompton is ride quality and full-size bike geometry. The big advantage over the Bike Friday is quick folding and value. The big advantage over the Birdy is weight, quick folding, and value. The Xootr Swift Folder is the lightest folding bike under $900. The Xootr Swift Folder can be configured with many different transmission options and is built around highly standard bicycle components."

Interestingly it does not name any advantage over the Dahon Helios. So my obvious question is (after chking the specs of the Helios, https://www.gaerlan.com/bikes/helios/helspec.htm) how come you didn't go for the Helios? Swift is $ 679 and the Dahon is $ 565. The Dahon folds neater and smaller and i think (despite the Swift statement on weight) it may be lighter or nearly the same. Dahon has folding pedals and the components are fairly comparable for the rest. The reasons i could think of for myself would be:

1. I like the way the Swift looks better.
2. I like the Idea of supporting a much smaller company
3. The horizontal drops of the Swift
4. Swift offers more in the way of custom features when u order it
5. Helios uses a proprietory Seat and post combination that must be replaced if you want to mount a different saddle (I HATE that kindoff thing, i think it is evil).
6. Swift looks less fancy/attractive to steal.

How about you guys, why the Swift and not the Helios?



BTW, check this,.. it is a recent entry in the Fixed Gear Gallery

james_swift

That's an awesome Swift fixie.
I actually test-rode a Helios and a Vitesse D5. The Vitesse D5 was more solid, so I went with that. Unfortunately, I failed to take into consideration the lack of adjustability with the Vitesse's fixed stem post and the crappy-inefficient internal gear hub. I originally bought the Dahon thinking I was just going to pack it on the train and ride between stations...nothing serious. But as I got the bike bug, I started craving for my old road bike (trashed from a collision with a car I had 7 years ago), and wanting that road bike feel and perfomance all over again. The Dahon just didin't have that feel...Helios or Vitesse. I was so close to buying a Bike Friday NWT, until I saw the Swift. One look at those simple, elegant, but functional lines, and I was hooked. Having been burned by my Dahon's proprietary parts and lack of customizeability, the Swift's extensive use of standard parts made absolute sense.

The Helios is not lighter than my Swift, and it's ride performance can't hold a candle to my Swift. The only thing my Dahon beats my Swift at is folding size, but then I have no problems stowing my Swift on the commuter train. The Swift looks better all-around as well. But for someone looking for optimum foldability with modest performance, then a Helios would be the better choice. If you're willing to give up some space for a larger fold but get screaming performance, then the Swift is the one you want.

james_swift

I took my Swift out today just 3 blocks from my apartment to join the fun at the San Francisco Grand Prix:
https://www.sanfrangrandprix.com/index_content.asp

I got lots of "what kind of bike is that?", and "hey man, is that a Friday?", and "that's a folder!!!".

Anyway, so I could get a good view of the race from multiple vantage points, I decided to ride out to North Beach, where I could see the racers struggle up Taylor St. hill, then come screaming down from Taylor through North Beach then down Columbus.

The closest route to the area was blocked-off, so from Embarcadero, I climbed up 2 hellish hills: Vallejo and Montgomery. Vallejo was as steep, if not steeper (but shorter) than Taylor (the toughest hill on the race course). I dropped into first and stood up the whole way, cranking slowly, but steadily. 2 roadies whom I had been following got off their bikes and walked half-way up Vallejo. When I hit the crest of Vallejo St., I hung a right and continued the insane climb up Montgomery. Those 2 hills are about as infamously steep as San Francisco has to offer, and my Swift felt rigid and efficient all the way up the climb. No creeking or ticking sounds from the bottom bracket or stem.

I wouldn't recommend doing the same climb with a Dahon, as the amount of upward pulling force on the bars required to conteract the amount of power to the pedals would probably blow the folding stem post assembly/locking mechanism. I wouldn't dare attmept this climb with my Dahon Vitesse D5...I know it simply could not make it.

Looks like the Swift passes the San Francisco hill test. I'm very pleased with how this bike performed in the hills today.

spambait11

I'd like to hear how the Swift does 6 months from now in the creaking and ticking department - I can't believe your stem didn't creak! (That's one thing I can't stand about my BF.)

yangmusa

James,

Nice!

With the long Dahon stem, I'm sure you are right about standig up and cranking. But the Vitesse D5 has the same 37" low gear as the Swift, so it would be necessary to stand. With the SpeedPro and a 22" bottom gear it might be possible to sit and spin to the top.. no standing necessary?

However, I always used to be a masher on my mtb, so I like the sound of that stiff Swift frame! If I were to tour I'd like lower gears though. It sure looks like I could fit a front derraileur in there, and it would still work out cheaper than the speed pro..

cheers, Magnus

(Hmmm, I think I'm obsessing over this, pro & con. I must be a bike geek..)

guydickinson

Hi everyone - new to the group, and the swift folder.

I've just taken delivery of a swift folder - a 'custom' build from Peter Riech at swiftfolder.com. I'm in the UK, so I'd never heard of the swift, but I'd been searching through folding bikes and was unwilling to sacrifice speed and ooomph, but really wanted a folder. Brompton's are two a penny over here and very cool, but I didn't like the suspension and soft ride. Tried a moulton atb (excellent ride, but doesn't easily fold!) and so I was close to getting an airnimal or bike friday, when I came across the swift. Coincided with a New York trip, so I test rode one around Brooklyn, talked to Peter about what I needed and he built one up on the next available batch of aluminium frames.

I'm really pleased with the bike - frame is super tight and firm (rides just like a full size hybrid, I think), and I can really get some speed and feel totally at ease and in control in fast, dangerous traffic. I'm 5'11 and 16 stone (i.e. fairly hefty) and this takes my weight no problems at all.

Here's a bunch of photo's I took if you're interested: https://www.flickr.com/photos/guy/sets/887609/ - I've geeked out and take some close shots of the weld, dropouts etc. for those that were asking for details on that.

The custom bits were:

Shimano Nexus 7 speed internal geared hub (2 lbs in extra weight but totally worth it!)
Deore XT brake levers
Deore LX brakes
Shimano 105 BB and crank
Racing Saddle
Deore LX headset

Rest was swift stock I think - rims, tyres etc.

The bike weighs 24lbs - 2lbs directly attributable to the internal hub, but I love it, so can forgive the weight gain.

Interested in the previous poster's amendment of a longer, carbon stem to his xootr - might try that idea out and see if it makes a significant change to the riding position (which seems fine to me.)

The swift is an excellent, simple design. I think it reaches 80% of the size of a folder that I need, with precisely none of the compromises of a traditional folder. The bonus is that it takes pretty much standard everything...useful, as I'm in the UK.

james_swift

On hills like Vallejo, Montgomery, and Taylor with 15-18% grades, you either stand or walk the bike up.

james_swift

Thats a nice mix of 105, and Deore LX components. Sweet! So Peter is building on aluminum frames now? Is your frame built in the USA or Taiwan? What kind of internal gear hub do you have (Sturmey? Rholoff?) and how many gears?[Nevermind...Nexus 7 speed] Is that a 1/8" single-speed chain? I like how the gear shift cable is routed inside the dropout to protect it, unlike the Sturmey Archer that has it's mechanism precariously protruding atop the axle-end. What are those herringbone slick tires? I want to get those!

Yeah, definitely play with the stem length/rise. I went to the extreme of hack-sawing 3 inches off my stem post, then smoothing it down with a dremmel sanding wheel.

Welcome to the Swift "fold". I'm confident you'll love your Swift as much as I do.

If you don't mind me asking, how much did your custom Swift cost?

Back to the Nexus 7-speed: how does it feel? Are all the gears solid and not "muddy" or "mushy"? How's the gear range? The reason why I ask is because I have a Dahon with a 5-speed Sturmey Archer, and the gears are really muddy when it comes to efficiency and power transfer.

yangmusa

My stepfather has a city bike with nexus 7 speed. The gears work really well, but it's a heavy bike with steel frame, fenders, rack, dynamo etc etc. so it's hard for me to tell efficiency-wise (and in top of that it's too small).

According to Sheldon Brown the range on the nexus 7 is 244%, which with typical gear/cog combinations would give you in the range of 35" - 85", or 30" - 73".. etc

Overall I've only had positive experiences with hub gears. I think you were really unlucky with your Dahon & lack of spares, slippage etc. The only thing I don't like is the limited range of most hub gears. I really would like something like 20" - 90"

v1nce

Hey thanks for the impressive pictures. Looks good! I like the beefy dropouts and fat welds in particular, good stuff! The Hanger looks different then what i thought..?

As for my experience with hub gears, it is all good as well. Both with the Nexus Three Speed and the Sturmey Archer. I really like they're durability and invulnerability. They never feel mushy or such to me and the range is enough for my style of riding. The difference in efficiency between derallieur and hub is rather debatable. I've seen many figures, none of them claiming a very large advantage for derallieur. All figures started from the premise that derallieur is "so many procents" more efficient IF the cogs and chain are new and the whole drive train is well lubed and in good condition. None too realistic a notion in daily use, particularly with a folder that is dropped back of cars or busses...

But anyway, different strokes for different folks. I also digg derallieurs for some applications/bikes myself.

guydickinson

Hi james_swift - my folder came out out at $1150 before shipping and UK tax. The dollar is weak at the moment (and more so in the late summer), so it was as good a time as any to make the investment.

I can't take any of the credit for the choice of component blend - I know very little about bikes, so just outlined my requirements to Peter Reich. The component prices are quite a bit cheaper in the states, compared to the UK as well, so it was a good deal for me.

re. the frame, I'm certain it's the same Taiwanese frames as xootr use - in fact Peter used a xootr shipping carton...if had 'black' checked as the frame colour.

I think the chain is a 1/8 - I had to replace the chainring as it took a hit in the carton during shipping and bent - the replacement the guy in the local shop specced was 52T 'TA' chainring 1 1/8 PCD.

Quick question - if I get a lower number of teeth, this will presumably increase the pedalling effort and thereby 'lower' the gearing? Or am I being dumb?

The tyres are 'standard' primo comet 100psi tyres - they have a very fine (1-2mm) herringbone tread on them - as close to slick as I suppose is safe for an inexperienced rider...they ride fast though :-)

Re. the nexus hub - I've never ridden a modern hub based bike before, but it's lovely - gear's are incredibly true, click directly into place and feel incredibly solid - I've had maybe 3 or 4 moments (in a weekend of long cycling) where it's clicked into gear on a hard pedal and then clicked again, but I think I need to slightly readjust the line up on the gearing.

I wouldn't say it's mushy at all...I was initially sceptical of hub gears as my memory of them (20 yrs ago) were stumey archer 3 speeds and they were terrible - as Peter promised, this one's nothing like it.

It's a lot nicer than a derallieur imho - none of the slide of a chain moving across the cogs...and it's simple clean and out of the way. For urban riding it's excellent, as several times I've had to slam to a stop because of dumb cars/pedestrians - I can readjust gears whilst stationary.

Only compromise for me is the maintenance if it fails whilst on holiday (i.e. how much harder for a local bike shop to fix vs. the universally understood derallieur) and the weight gain...but I suppose I can always build a fixed gear if I want an 18lb swift :-) And if my hub gear goes on holiday, I end up with a fixed gear anyway :-)

Re. the range - again, this is my first 'proper' bike for a long time, so time will tell, but the range seems fine. I use mainly 3rd and 4th for gentle/medium level riding , 6th and 7th for strong, fast downhilling and 2nd for uphills. Not hit any major inclines, 1st seems very high too me, but I'm sure I'll appreciate it one day. But as my fitness improves I may want 'lower' gears - hence my question about the reduced teeth on a chainring.

Only slight criticism with the folder is that I noticed that the upright handlebar stem has a slight amount of play - basically it's not tight enough on the stem...I've just adjusted the quick release and it's fine, but pretty hard to release...I guess that's the trade off for quick release - or are there better release levers out there?

james_swift

My stem post is solid...even when it was at it's stock length (now 3 inches shorter). I've noticed, however, that your stem post is mounted reversed. According to all the pictures I've seen from the Xootr and Swift website, the quick-release side of the post should be facing towards the front of the bike. I don't know if this will make any difference in your situation, but it's just an observation.

yangmusa

No such thing as a silly question!

First:
- a low gear is for going up hills. Less distance on the road for 1 turn of the cranks
- a high gear is for going fast/downhill. More distance on the road for 1 turn of the cranks.

If you get a smaller chainring, it will lower all your gears. Ie. make hills easier, and make top speed lower. If you want to go faster you need a bigger chainring. Big chainrings can get expensive.. And you want to make sure it still goes low enough for the steepest hills you regularly need to get up.

Hope that helps
Magnus

guydickinson

Thanks Magnus. Of course, now that I stop for just a few seconds and think about the mechanics of what I asked, plus the fact that the smaller chains on triplechainsets are easier to pedal...

Thanks for the clarification...

ulrich

My brother Nathan and I designed the rear dropouts on the aluminum Swift with Peter Reich, the original designer of the Swift. To clarify a few points:

* The derailleur hanger is a custom part, as are almost all derailleur hangers. In our case, we had to use some unusual geometry and mounting details to get it to work with the horizontal dropouts. However, Xootr stocks the replacement part. Furthermore, it's pretty ductile and can be re-bent pretty easily if damaged.

* If you look carefully at the rear dropout you will notice two M5 button-head screws. These are the "braze ons" for fenders/racks, etc. The rearmost screw also prevents the (extremely unlikely) possibility of the rear wheel inadvertently sliding out of the dropouts in the aft direction by interfering with the quick-release head.



* All Swifts whether from Peter/Design Mobility or Xootr are the same frame. It has a lifetime warranty, so customers shouldn't be concerned about robustness. I have about 3000 miles on mine...having used it quite abusively for test purposes (off road, etc.).

* I put Planet Bike recumbent fenders on my daily commuter. When we get a few minutes, we'll put some photos on the website showing one nice mounting scheme using zip ties (which I prefer for ease of application/removal and for really solid positioning). I ride every day rain or shine in Philadelphia, and have good luck with these fenders.

Best,

Karl U

yangmusa

Awesome to have someone from the manufacturer here!


I already talked to Xootr customer support about this. They're going to add info on the FAQ. Thanks for the clear picture though.


Customer support told me about you! He he, but looking forward to pictures. Again, this would be useful for the FAQ and I think customer support are working on it..

Lastly, if I could humbly express a wish, it would be for a 2nd Xootr model using an internal hub. Something like Guy Dickinson's black Swift in this thread. I'd prefer an SRAM Spectro 7 I guess, because it has a wider range than the Nexus 7*. I like the internal hub, but for myself feel it isn't worth the extra price over the standard setup (or at least, not that much of a premium..)

cheers, Magnus

PS: * I commented before that the SRAM was also cheaper and lighter. Well, I far as I can see, in the US it probably costs slightly more ($40?). But it IS cheaper than the Shimano Nexus 8 and has the same gear range! So, I wish I had checked that before shooting off before...

james_swift

Wow, this thread has the honor of being visited by one of the co-designers of the Xootr Swift.

Karl: the next time you speak with Peter, please let him know that I'm a huge fan of his work, and I couldn't be more pleased with my Swift.

I do agree that the frame is quite robust. I've been putting it through it's paces on some of the crappiest pothole-infested streets of downtown San Francisco (thanks to our ever absent Mayor). In my area, there is a lot of construction work going on to build new high-rise condos, so my route often takes me through broken-up concrete and debris, and over several successions of iron plate road covers. As noted earlier, I took my Swift up some insane 18 percent climbs up Vallejo and Montgomery streets, and the frame felt rigid and efficient all the way up. I also hop my Swift up curbs and over gutter grills as needed, and inspite of the short-term abuse, the bike still rides smooth and straight on clean suburban flats. This is an excellent frame (which also happens to fold).

v1nce

Hey Karl,

Kudos on dropping by here and clarifying some points, that is exactly the kindoff thing that will make the Swift my first option if i ever decide to buy a new and lighter frame/bike! Nice one/

That reminds me is the Swift available as a Frameset and nothing else, and if so at what cost?

Also, does the Swift come apart into two sections if one has a tools (for airplane travel for example).

Cheers!!

yangmusa

No tools necessary:
https://www.xootr.com/xootr/swift/packing.shtml

(so long as you have a 30" suitcase..)

ulrich

The deal between Xootr and Peter Reich is that he handles all custom work and framesets. If you email to info@swiftfolders.com, you should be able to find out about framesets. Peter's general attitude is that if users are going to do interesting things, he likes to sell them frames, but I'm not sure his inventory position right now.

-KU