LOOK!! This is why Basso,Ulrich Out Of Tour:Drugs!!
06-30-06, 01:56 PM
#301
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Astana-Würth leaves the Tour
Dutch television's sports anchorman Mart Smeets has just reported that the Astana-Würth team has left the Tour de France. The team had five of its Tour riders officially named in the Operacion Puerto affair (Sergio Paulinho, Isidro Nozal, Allan Davis, Alberto Contador, Joseba Beloki), as well as several others (Michele Scarponi, Marcos Serrano, David Etxebarria, Angel Vicioso, Unai Osa, Jörg Jaksche), and of course ex-team manager Manolo Saiz. The team therefore wouldn't have had enough riders to start.
In an official statement, Active Bay, the team's management company, confirmed the news. "In view of the content of the dossier sent to Spanish authorities, Active Bay has decided, in accordance with the Ethical Code signed between the UCI ProTour's teams, to withdraw from the Tour de France those riders that appear in the above-mentioned dossier.
"This decision is adopted without prejudice of the respect to the right to the presumption of innocence of these riders and of that Active Bay will exercise the actions for the defence of its rights and those of its workers. This measure does not concern the team's riders of the Tour de France that are not included in the dossier: Alexander Vinokourov, Andrey Kashechkin, Carlos Barredo and Luis León Sanchez. Nevertheless, the withdrawal of the riders that appear in the above-mentioned dossier implies that the Tour of France team will not have the minimum number of riders demanded by the UCI rules, which means the team will not be able to take the start tomorrow morning in the Tour de France."
The organisers of the Tour, ASO, were already determined to refuse to allow Astana-Würth to start, despite a ruling from the Court of Arbitration for Sport that said it could.
Poor Vino, he does his part and doesn't get caught yet still can't ride!
Dutch television's sports anchorman Mart Smeets has just reported that the Astana-Würth team has left the Tour de France. The team had five of its Tour riders officially named in the Operacion Puerto affair (Sergio Paulinho, Isidro Nozal, Allan Davis, Alberto Contador, Joseba Beloki), as well as several others (Michele Scarponi, Marcos Serrano, David Etxebarria, Angel Vicioso, Unai Osa, Jörg Jaksche), and of course ex-team manager Manolo Saiz. The team therefore wouldn't have had enough riders to start.
In an official statement, Active Bay, the team's management company, confirmed the news. "In view of the content of the dossier sent to Spanish authorities, Active Bay has decided, in accordance with the Ethical Code signed between the UCI ProTour's teams, to withdraw from the Tour de France those riders that appear in the above-mentioned dossier.
"This decision is adopted without prejudice of the respect to the right to the presumption of innocence of these riders and of that Active Bay will exercise the actions for the defence of its rights and those of its workers. This measure does not concern the team's riders of the Tour de France that are not included in the dossier: Alexander Vinokourov, Andrey Kashechkin, Carlos Barredo and Luis León Sanchez. Nevertheless, the withdrawal of the riders that appear in the above-mentioned dossier implies that the Tour of France team will not have the minimum number of riders demanded by the UCI rules, which means the team will not be able to take the start tomorrow morning in the Tour de France."
The organisers of the Tour, ASO, were already determined to refuse to allow Astana-Würth to start, despite a ruling from the Court of Arbitration for Sport that said it could.
Poor Vino, he does his part and doesn't get caught yet still can't ride!
Last edited by PedalMasher; 06-30-06 at 02:02 PM.
06-30-06, 01:59 PM
#302
In Transition
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Originally Posted by ggusta
how could I possibly resist the urge to be bitter, disenchanted, angry, hateful and cycnical. Sign me up!
Truth is, been where you mind is at (not in cycling, of course, just in general)
Frankly, it didn't work for me like it seems to be working for you. Takes a lot of work and I was always having to ramp it up another notch. Eventually, I made peace with all that
I'm sorry I stumbled into your world, obviously "inclusiveness" on this thread ends when someone doesn't agree with the dominant paradigm. I have been successfully run off the thread.
Good job. Your work is done here.
PS: and who has tested positive in the wake of this recent scandal? I am still waiting to hear that just for my own edification.
Truth is, been where you mind is at (not in cycling, of course, just in general)
Frankly, it didn't work for me like it seems to be working for you. Takes a lot of work and I was always having to ramp it up another notch. Eventually, I made peace with all that
I'm sorry I stumbled into your world, obviously "inclusiveness" on this thread ends when someone doesn't agree with the dominant paradigm. I have been successfully run off the thread.
Good job. Your work is done here.
PS: and who has tested positive in the wake of this recent scandal? I am still waiting to hear that just for my own edification.
06-30-06, 02:02 PM
#303
Tête de Limace
I've been reading this stuff all day now, and there's a point that was kind of left by the wayside a little bit ago:
Someone asked earlier about the rider's presumption of guilt in this case; that all it takes is an implication and you can be banned from the TdF. This is ostensibly done in the name of taking a hard stance against doping. That is both the Tour coordinators' and the individual team's choice. The philosophy hinges on the idea that it is better to err on the side punishing a not-guilty party by mistake than it is to let a cheater race because there's not enough evidence to support an allegation. I have no truck with this decision other than it opens the whole process up to sabotage. Seriously, if all someone has to do is muster up enough 'evidence' at a key moment in time to get key people out of the loop, then that makes the whole process that much more simple. It's the professional cycling version of the Salem Witch trials (maybe I missed it, but I'm surprised no one has referenced that yet)
Please don't confuse my questioning of this point as questioning of whether or not these people were rightly kicked out. I do not know what the decisions were based on; articles up to this point vary from "their names were simply on the list" to "there was substantial evidence supporting the allegations". If the former is true, then perhaps they need to be a little more restrictive in what they use as the threshold for kicking people out. If it's the latter, then it seems to me like the system is working.
I did find interesting the ESPN piece on this:
Even though, as far as I have read, none of this evidence has been made public, we can speculate that it would have to be pretty solid. These guys, at least T-Mobile, are essentially leaving their riders to the lions. It's rare when a team doesn't advocate for their players, when there's any chance of innocence... Unless of course, they knew about the doping and now they're hoping to cleanse themselves by burning sinners (or those which were caught anyhow).
Someone asked earlier about the rider's presumption of guilt in this case; that all it takes is an implication and you can be banned from the TdF. This is ostensibly done in the name of taking a hard stance against doping. That is both the Tour coordinators' and the individual team's choice. The philosophy hinges on the idea that it is better to err on the side punishing a not-guilty party by mistake than it is to let a cheater race because there's not enough evidence to support an allegation. I have no truck with this decision other than it opens the whole process up to sabotage. Seriously, if all someone has to do is muster up enough 'evidence' at a key moment in time to get key people out of the loop, then that makes the whole process that much more simple. It's the professional cycling version of the Salem Witch trials (maybe I missed it, but I'm surprised no one has referenced that yet)
Please don't confuse my questioning of this point as questioning of whether or not these people were rightly kicked out. I do not know what the decisions were based on; articles up to this point vary from "their names were simply on the list" to "there was substantial evidence supporting the allegations". If the former is true, then perhaps they need to be a little more restrictive in what they use as the threshold for kicking people out. If it's the latter, then it seems to me like the system is working.
I did find interesting the ESPN piece on this:
Originally Posted by espn
T-Mobile received information implicating Ullrich, Sevilla and Pevenage from Tour organizers, including documents from the Spanish government, team spokesman Luuc Eisenga said.
"The only thing I can tell you is that the information is clear enough and didn't leave any doubt," he said.
Another T-Mobile spokesman, Stefan Wagner, told Germany's n-tv television that the team was acting on information indicating "that there was contact between the two riders and Rudi Pevenage and the Spanish doctor ... who is at the center of this doping story."
Asked whether T-Mobile would consider cutting ties with Ullrich completely, he replied "certainly ... we are now demanding evidence of his innocence."
"If this evidence can be provided, then we have a completely new situation," he said. "If it cannot be provided, nothing will change about this situation."
"The only thing I can tell you is that the information is clear enough and didn't leave any doubt," he said.
Another T-Mobile spokesman, Stefan Wagner, told Germany's n-tv television that the team was acting on information indicating "that there was contact between the two riders and Rudi Pevenage and the Spanish doctor ... who is at the center of this doping story."
Asked whether T-Mobile would consider cutting ties with Ullrich completely, he replied "certainly ... we are now demanding evidence of his innocence."
"If this evidence can be provided, then we have a completely new situation," he said. "If it cannot be provided, nothing will change about this situation."
06-30-06, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker
Take a sample of blood in a slender glass test tube. Spin it in a centrifuge so all the red cells sink to the bottom and the clear plasma rises to the top. The red cells should take up less than 50% of the tube. That percentage is the hematocrit. If the cells take up more than 50% of the tube, that is strong evidence of EPO usage. It means the person's blood can carry more oxygen, which helps them output power at a higher and longer level, but it also means that the blood is thick andy syrupy and might clog up the narrow coronary arteries, causing a heart attack.
06-30-06, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker
Which includes the risk of being outed and banned.
06-30-06, 02:06 PM
#306
Tête de Limace
Originally Posted by PedalMasher
Astana-Würth leaves the Tour
Dutch television's sports anchorman Mart Smeets has just reported that the Astana-Würth team has left the Tour de France. The team had five of its Tour riders officially named in the Operacion Puerto affair (Sergio Paulinho, Isidro Nozal, Allan Davis, Alberto Contador, Joseba Beloki), as well as several others (Michele Scarponi, Marcos Serrano, David Etxebarria, Angel Vicioso, Unai Osa, Jörg Jaksche), and of course ex-team manager Manolo Saiz. The team therefore wouldn't have had enough riders to start.
In an official statement, Active Bay, the team's management company, confirmed the news. "In view of the content of the dossier sent to Spanish authorities, Active Bay has decided, in accordance with the Ethical Code signed between the UCI ProTour's teams, to withdraw from the Tour de France those riders that appear in the above-mentioned dossier.
"This decision is adopted without prejudice of the respect to the right to the presumption of innocence of these riders and of that Active Bay will exercise the actions for the defence of its rights and those of its workers. This measure does not concern the team's riders of the Tour de France that are not included in the dossier: Alexander Vinokourov, Andrey Kashechkin, Carlos Barredo and Luis León Sanchez. Nevertheless, the withdrawal of the riders that appear in the above-mentioned dossier implies that the Tour of France team will not have the minimum number of riders demanded by the UCI rules, which means the team will not be able to take the start tomorrow morning in the Tour de France."
The organisers of the Tour, ASO, were already determined to refuse to allow Astana-Würth to start, despite a ruling from the Court of Arbitration for Sport that said it could.
Poor Vino, he does his part and doesn't get caught yet still can't ride!
Dutch television's sports anchorman Mart Smeets has just reported that the Astana-Würth team has left the Tour de France. The team had five of its Tour riders officially named in the Operacion Puerto affair (Sergio Paulinho, Isidro Nozal, Allan Davis, Alberto Contador, Joseba Beloki), as well as several others (Michele Scarponi, Marcos Serrano, David Etxebarria, Angel Vicioso, Unai Osa, Jörg Jaksche), and of course ex-team manager Manolo Saiz. The team therefore wouldn't have had enough riders to start.
In an official statement, Active Bay, the team's management company, confirmed the news. "In view of the content of the dossier sent to Spanish authorities, Active Bay has decided, in accordance with the Ethical Code signed between the UCI ProTour's teams, to withdraw from the Tour de France those riders that appear in the above-mentioned dossier.
"This decision is adopted without prejudice of the respect to the right to the presumption of innocence of these riders and of that Active Bay will exercise the actions for the defence of its rights and those of its workers. This measure does not concern the team's riders of the Tour de France that are not included in the dossier: Alexander Vinokourov, Andrey Kashechkin, Carlos Barredo and Luis León Sanchez. Nevertheless, the withdrawal of the riders that appear in the above-mentioned dossier implies that the Tour of France team will not have the minimum number of riders demanded by the UCI rules, which means the team will not be able to take the start tomorrow morning in the Tour de France."
The organisers of the Tour, ASO, were already determined to refuse to allow Astana-Würth to start, despite a ruling from the Court of Arbitration for Sport that said it could.
Poor Vino, he does his part and doesn't get caught yet still can't ride!
06-30-06, 02:07 PM
#307
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No way to ever clean up any competition - see game theory's "Prisoner's Dilemma":
https://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/PRISDIL.html
https://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/PRISDIL.html
06-30-06, 02:08 PM
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If all those guys doped...there is no way armstrong didn't.
06-30-06, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by TYB069
Hopefully one of these riders is going to say "Screw this, I'm not taking the fall by myself, I'm taking everyone down with me."
06-30-06, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Contra Fixie
No way to ever clean up any competition - see game theory's "Prisoner's Dilemma":
https://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/PRISDIL.html
https://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/PRISDIL.html
06-30-06, 02:15 PM
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Armstrong made a point of vigorously defending the whole sport of cycling, not just himself. He was either way out of the loop (unlikely) or was lying.
06-30-06, 02:16 PM
#313
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I would imagine the teams were not only provided with text documentation of rider relationship with Fuentes but also video or cd's of their riders entering this guys office. I would bet most are on tape with time and date visible.
06-30-06, 02:19 PM
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Let's get something straight. Obviously, Lance has never taken a performance enhancing drug. He has always been 100% clean. How do I know? Because he's my hero!
P.S. Jose Canseco is my second hero. I would also like to be a member of the 40-40 club.
P.S. Jose Canseco is my second hero. I would also like to be a member of the 40-40 club.
06-30-06, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TRaffic Jammer
How to clean the sport though? I really couldn't give a rat's ass about Lance, he's one guy in a sport dominated by cheating. Besides Lance STILL hasn't been paid his Tour bonuses, THAT'S what he's been fightin' for. Now he may never get the dough.
I say with or without drugs those same ten guys are still were they are...the order they place just changes depending who is on what.
06-30-06, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmuter
Who cares as long as I'm entertained. Ride for me monkeys! Ride!
06-30-06, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Dial_tone
This is where I fall in. Out of the hundreds of UCI pros there are maybe 10 that have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting on the podium. Those ten or so guys are in a league of their own within the pro peleton but when fighting amongst themselves they're in a position where 1-3% can mean the difference between 1st and 5th.
I say with or without drugs those same ten guys are still were they are...the order they place just changes depending who is on what.
I say with or without drugs those same ten guys are still were they are...the order they place just changes depending who is on what.
Those who think he's a genetic freak and beat everyone fair and square. The other contenders were forced to dope to try to compete with him.
He doped just like the rest of them.
I'm still in the first camp. This is getting so big that I think someone may in fact blow the whistle and I'm reserving judgment until that moment.
06-30-06, 02:26 PM
#318
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Originally Posted by PedalMasher
Wow there is some serious carnage in the fallout. AG2R has a serious GC contender now? ha
06-30-06, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TRaffic Jammer
How to clean the sport though? I really couldn't give a rat's ass about Lance, he's one guy in a sport dominated by cheating. Besides Lance STILL hasn't been paid his Tour bonuses, THAT'S what he's been fightin' for. Now he may never get the dough.
He did get paid. He won the lawsuit against the insurance company, SCA and got an additional 2.5 million dollars. The total payout was $7.5 million.
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06-30-06, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Its all a French conspiracy to get Moreau and Voekler on the podium.
06-30-06, 02:32 PM
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Zabriskie. He is being a psycho robot, remember? And robots don't have hematocrit to f with.
06-30-06, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by galen_52657
Just like the computer hackers are always ahead of the computer defenders. The dopers are ahead of the dope detectors.
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06-30-06, 02:47 PM
#324
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Originally Posted by PedalMasher
A massive generalization, but a good point. There are two competing camps on Lance now.
Those who think he's a genetic freak and beat everyone fair and square. The other contenders were forced to dope to try to compete with him.
He doped just like the rest of them.
I'm still in the first camp. This is getting so big that I think someone may in fact blow the whistle and I'm reserving judgment until that moment.
Those who think he's a genetic freak and beat everyone fair and square. The other contenders were forced to dope to try to compete with him.
He doped just like the rest of them.
I'm still in the first camp. This is getting so big that I think someone may in fact blow the whistle and I'm reserving judgment until that moment.
I still plan to enjoy watching the tour, and I really don't think I'll notice if it's 1 MPH slower.
06-30-06, 02:47 PM
#325
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Originally Posted by jjmolyet
Think bigger, testing has time on its side, and little viles of evidence they can test forever! Dopers can be ahead but testing will catch up.